Why was the CSLR and CCEHR Merged?

Discussion in 'London Underground' started by Sad Sprinter, 2 Oct 2019.

  1. Sad Sprinter

    Sad Sprinter Member

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    What was the reason for connecting the two lines together at Camden and Kennington? Wasn't there a plan to connect the CSLR to the Bakerloo from Euston or something like that? And to extend the CCEHR from Charing Cross to Victoria?
     
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  3. John Webb

    John Webb Established Member

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    Could you please remind us what CSLR and CCEHR stand for? I assume CSLR is "? and South London Railway" and CCEHR is "Charing Cross and ?? Railway".....
     
  4. Sad Sprinter

    Sad Sprinter Member

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    Sorry, CSLR= City and South London Railway, (Northern Line Bank Branch) and CCHER= Charing Cross, Euston, Hampstead Railway (Northern Line Charing Cross Branch).
     
  5. John Webb

    John Webb Established Member

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    Thanks. Can't find my main history book on the London Underground system at the moment. The detail I do have is that the City and South London seems to have opened between what is now Borough and Stockwell in December 1890, extended to Moorgate Feb 1900, Clapham Common June 1900 and Euston May 1907. Line length 7.25 miles, and remained independent until absorbed into the LPTB in 1933.
    The Charing Cross, Euston and Hampstead opened 1907 between Charing Cross and Hampstead, extended to the current Embankment April 1924 and in September 1926 got to Kennington to link with the CSLR; not clear if there was a physical connection made at that time or not.
    I assume the connections on the northern extremities were the result of LPTB decisions after 1933?
     
  6. etr221

    etr221 Member

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    For more details of developments, see CULG, at http://www.davros.org/rail/culg/northern.html ...
    In summary: the C&SLR was originally King William Street (in the city) to Stockwell, extended pre WW1 to run Euston-Clapham Common (and abandoning King William Street). It had smaller diameter tunnels than the other tubes, and it used loco hauled trains.
    The CCE&HR was one of the Yerkes tubes from - by WW1 - Charing Cross (now Embankment) to Golders Green and Highgate (now Archway) - i.e. two branches. It had also been (legally) amalgamated with the other two Yerkes tube railways (Baker St & Waterloo, and Great Northern, Piccadilly & Brompton) into the London Electric Railway.
    So you had the C&SL running to the south via the City, and the Hampstead tube (CCEH part of the LER) north via the West End.

    In 1913 the Yerkes or Underground group holding company acquired the C&SLR, but its statutory railway (C&SLR, LER, MDR and CLR) companies remained separate. In the 1920s there was a major programme of development which saw in the north, extension from Golders Green to Edgware, in the south from Clapham to Morden (my understanding is that legally this was part of the C&SLR). In between the old CS&L tunnels were rebuilt, to standard tube diameter, using standard tube stock; and to provide a perhaps more logical and balanced system, with through services from north to south there were two other extensions - from Euston (C&SLR) to Camden Town; and from Charing Cross to Keenington, with junctions between the two (C&SL & CCEH) at Kennington and Camden Town - this was presented as one of the marvels of the age, permitting non conflicting operation from both northern branches to both routes through the centre - I'm unaware of any proposal for a second southern branch until the line to Battersea (currently under construction) came about. While the LER and C&SLR remained separate companies (until formation of the LPTB in 1933), it was all operated as one. I think at the time it was considered desirable that - wherever possible - there should, and would, be through services (rather than having passengers change trains/lines). There was certainly a proposal for another interchange junction (similar to Camden) with the Bakerloo, essentially at Waterloo, in large part under the main line terminal (LSWR/SR), and the SR objected, leading to the proposal being dropped.
     
  7. AM9

    AM9 Established Member

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    Ooops, beaten me to it but I have added a few dates plus through running start dates:
    In a book that I have, it says that from 13 September 1926, there was through running via Kennington to Hampstead and Highgate (now Archway) line.
    It also says that when the CSLR enlarged tunnels were opened in 20 April 1924, the link to Camden Town was opened allowing through running onto the Hampstead and Highgate lines.
    The two lines north from Camden Town were formally renamed with the formation of the LPTB on 1 July 1933 and re-named the Morden-Edgeware line the next year. The line's name was changed to the Northern Line with the building of the extensions to Mill Hill and High Barnet in 1937.
     
    Last edited: 2 Oct 2019
  8. Lucan

    Lucan Member

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    I wonder why they chose the name "Northern Line" when it was the Underground line that reached furthest south, and was not the one that reached furthest North!
     
  9. si404

    si404 Member

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    The abandoned Northern Heights plans.
     
  10. John Webb

    John Webb Established Member

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    I think because it ran roughly North-South, and use of the name "Southern" would have led to confusion with the well-established Southern Railway?
     
  11. Dstock7080

    Dstock7080 Established Member

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    from 1933-1934 on maps it was described as "Edgware, Highgate & Morden Line", 1934-1937 as "Morden-Edgware Line" then from 1937 as "Northern Line"
     
  12. Lucan

    Lucan Member

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    Trying to think of a more appropriate name for it. The "City Line" line would be catchy and would hark back to its C&SL origin, although that leaves out the Charing X branch, and you would need to drop the "City" part from the "Hammersmith & City".
     
  13. rebmcr

    rebmcr Established Member

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    Well the CX branch is destined to be split back off at some point, and the H&C doesn't even terminate in the City any more...
     
  14. Surreytraveller

    Surreytraveller Established Member

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    Because it took over the branches of the Great Northern Railway?
     
  15. Mikey C

    Mikey C Established Member

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    I think that's it. Bushey would indeed have been a long way north!
     
  16. Dr_Intoxicated

    Dr_Intoxicated Member

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    I don't think that the H&C ever terminated in the city. It used to be the Metropolitan, and when it changed to the H&C it was running to Whitechapel and Barking.
     
  17. edwin_m

    edwin_m Veteran Member

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    The name presumably originates with the Hammersmith and City Railway, whose physical extent was only the Hammersmith branch west of its divergence from the GW main line but which had through trains over the Metropolitan beyond Paddington.
     
  18. rebmcr

    rebmcr Established Member

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    Whitechapel was at least City-adjacent, with few peak-only Barking services.

    Now that everything continues eastward, the City moniker is very anachronistic... except for Moorgate turnarounds during disruption. Though I suppose the same applies to the Bakerloo — are there any other examples of an "[X] and [Y] [line/railway]"-type name where one end continues serving far beyond the implied terminus?
     
  19. bluegoblin7

    bluegoblin7 Member

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    Victoria, Piccadilly, Central...
     
  20. rebmcr

    rebmcr Established Member

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    None of those have "and" in the name.
     
  21. bluegoblin7

    bluegoblin7 Member

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    Neither does the Bakerloo.
     
  22. Surreytraveller

    Surreytraveller Established Member

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    I believe the name 'Hammersmith & City' was always used internally by LU before the Hammersmith branch of the Metropolitan Line was renamed
     
  23. Surreytraveller

    Surreytraveller Established Member

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    The point being?
     
  24. rebmcr

    rebmcr Established Member

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    That's an abbreviation of "Baker St and Waterloo Railway" — Victoria and Central lines are not such abbreviations.

    Piccadilly (Great Northern, Piccadilly, and Brompton Railway) is borderline, as it does go far past Brompton now, but didn't while it still had the multi-station name.
     
  25. bluegoblin7

    bluegoblin7 Member

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    Bakerloo as a portmanteau and Hammersmith and City as three words are not the same thing...

    ...I responded to the question in line with the examples given.
     
  26. si404

    si404 Member

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    The Settle and Carlisle effectively begins in Leeds (it always went a little south of Settle).
     

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