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Why was the decision taken to build Moorfields instead of use Liverpool Exchange station?

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Dr Hoo

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No they don't, but the Exchange frontage is so impressive, it seems such a shame not to use it and replace it with a carbuncle
Well, it was very clearly the architectural vision of the City of Liverpool at the time. They even had a special act of parliament to facilitate the construction of the elevated walkway network. BR just provided what was asked for.

If the city changes its mind I am sure that they are free to pay to re-configure the area. (Think of Birmingham Bull Ring and previous version of New Street and shopping centre above.)
 
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Djgr

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Certainly for the Wirral Loop Line, it continues to be effective to walk over to James Street, the Water Street entrance, for a good proportion of the catchment area, and saves the time going round the loop.

I never understood why the new platform at James Street was built instead of using the existing one, now disused, which is directly parallel and alongside it. The loop seems quite possible diverging at the east end of this, known universally on the system as "The Old Platform".

It's a valid point for discussion. The stations on the Jubilee Line Extension, each done by a separate architect, are notably architectural ego-trips. Try changing from Jubilee to District at West Ham, two lines in the open on top of one another, but which requires two escalators going up and one going back down again, plus plenty of walking, and you will see what I mean. Each won its own architectural industry awards, which seemed to have been lined up before they opened.

And it's quite frustrating that the Water Street entrance is only open limited hours (or it was when I last looked). Exiting via Water Street certainly offers a day's exercise in one go though!
 

Taunton

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Well, it was very clearly the architectural vision of the City of Liverpool at the time. They even had a special act of parliament to facilitate the construction of the elevated walkway network. BR just provided what was asked for.
This was a city planning ideal of the era. Other cities did the same. Edinburgh had a comparable requirement to include an upper floor walkway along the frontage of all the replacements of the classic buildings along Princes Street, and you can spot the ones done in the late 60s-early 70s by actually having this, completely unused. Here's an example on the right, compare with the left https://www.google.com/maps/@55.951...yegMVGQNr7XRjTm2Wm3S68VWg!2e10!7i11000!8i5500 It was only later realised it was always going to be incomplete, and later making the frontages of grandest old ones Listed Buildings finished it off. The commercial owners also reasoned that people were never going to take to the upper level as the prime walking area, especially as the adjacent side streets were not being done.
 

edwin_m

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All part of the 60s/70s attitude that the ground level was for the car and people would be banished to elevated walkways or subways.
 

Journeyman

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And in the country that gave us Leslie Green and Charles Holden !

Wash your mouth out young man.

Couldn't agree more - those two came up with some absolutely beautiful designs that have really stood the test of time.
 

S&CLER

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All part of the 60s/70s attitude that the ground level was for the car and people would be banished to elevated walkways or subways.
Well Chester got it right with the Rows some time before the 60s; and isn't there a town in Switzerland that has something very similar to Chester's Rows?
 

6Gman

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And it's quite frustrating that the Water Street entrance is only open limited hours (or it was when I last looked). Exiting via Water Street certainly offers a day's exercise in one go though!

Used that exit once. Rather thought we might be in St Helens by the time we finally emerged! :D
 

Taunton

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Water Street exit much better used on the way home from the office in the evening, going downhill ...!
 

edwin_m

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Well Chester got it right with the Rows some time before the 60s; and isn't there a town in Switzerland that has something very similar to Chester's Rows?
Unlike Chester at the time, I'd like to think the streets of 70s Liverpool weren't awash with waste and sewage.
 

Djgr

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Well Chester got it right with the Rows some time before the 60s; and isn't there a town in Switzerland that has something very similar to Chester's Rows?

Except that the retailers in the top row in Chester appear to be suffering somewhat last time I was there. Retailing on multi levels can be confusing and the street level in Chester is now more attractive with (limited) pedestrianisation.
 

Ianno87

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Except that the retailers in the top row in Chester appear to be suffering somewhat last time I was there. Retailing on multi levels can be confusing and the street level in Chester is now more attractive with (limited) pedestrianisation.

Modern shopping centres (like the Trafford Centre) put mall entrances 50/50 between Upper and Lower levels specifically to avoid this.

The MetroCentre has most/all its entrances on the ground floor, so the upper level is effectively dead.
 

Bletchleyite

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Oh, to walk through into a grand trainshed full of trains !

It has to be said, though, that for most users of what is now the Northern Line, the present situation is wildly better than the pre-1979 situation. Merseyrail is really quite a good operation, and one of the few local rail services that would come close to meeting muster in a comparable large German city. And it's about to get new EMUs meeting that sort of standard, too.

Yes, the direct Scottish services were lost, but those could just as easily run via Wigan (and are doing).

That said, the stations are all very 1970s and utilitarian, even post-tarting-up. I'd love to see Liverpool Central rebuilt again, only this time making it more impressive with both a new ground-level building to replace the run-down shopping arcade, plus opening out the Northern Line platform area to have an uplit, cleaned concrete ceiling and feature platforms (a bit like the Haagse Tramtunnel, maybe, which has wooden platforms, though for fire safety it'd likely have to be wood-effect tile), perhaps with impressive murals, a bit more like the disused platform at James St and less like the present dump.

I love the way each station in Hamburg, a comparable global port city (at least historically), has its own character and style, and I'd love to see that unseat the boring utilitarian nature of Merseyrail's underground stations.
 

yorksrob

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It has to be said, though, that for most users of what is now the Northern Line, the present situation is wildly better than the pre-1979 situation. Merseyrail is really quite a good operation, and one of the few local rail services that would come close to meeting muster in a comparable large German city. And it's about to get new EMUs meeting that sort of standard, too.

Yes, the direct Scottish services were lost, but those could just as easily run via Wigan (and are doing).

That said, the stations are all very 1970s and utilitarian, even post-tarting-up. I'd love to see Liverpool Central rebuilt again, only this time making it more impressive with both a new ground-level building to replace the run-down shopping arcade, plus opening out the Northern Line platform area to have an uplit, cleaned concrete ceiling and feature platforms (a bit like the Haagse Tramtunnel, maybe, which has wooden platforms, though for fire safety it'd likely have to be wood-effect tile), perhaps with impressive murals, a bit more like the disused platform at James St and less like the present dump.

I love the way each station in Hamburg, a comparable global port city (at least historically), has its own character and style, and I'd love to see that unseat the boring utilitarian nature of Merseyrail's underground stations.

Well, it definitely works. There needed to be a way to enable public transport interchange between the networks. If it was me planning, I might have just had an underground link between the CLC at central and James Street via Lime Street and Exchange.
 

Bletchleyite

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Well, it definitely works. There needed to be a way to enable public transport interchange between the networks.

Not only that, but a wider choice of direct destinations within central Liverpool. Until the opening of Liverpool One (which has been open under 10 years), Moorfields was neither use nor ornament other than Monday-Friday 8-9am and 5-6pm. Outside of that it was a ghost town. And Exchange would have been exactly the same - people would have taken buses and driven to get closer to their intended destination, the main shopping area which for 30 odd years was much closer to Central.

Allowing people from West Lancashire and Sefton a direct service to the shopping area of Liverpool at Central was truly the "killer app" of Merseyrail. Not interchange, as most users aren't interchanging and most people who go from the Northern Line to mainline services just walk across anyway (though Central is usefully closer to Lime St than Exchange).

The argument for a ground-level Exchange Station is very similar to suggesting that Thameslink should never have been built, unless you only used it for fewer than 1tph to Scotland which, for reasons of connectivity, would be better starting at Lime St and running via Wigan. Or that the Met Line should have terminated at Baker St or Marylebone. Neither would be a popular proposition with its users.
 

S&CLER

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It has to be said, though, that for most users of what is now the Northern Line, the present situation is wildly better than the pre-1979 situation. Merseyrail is really quite a good operation, and one of the few local rail services that would come close to meeting muster in a comparable large German city. And it's about to get new EMUs meeting that sort of standard, too.

Yes, the direct Scottish services were lost, but those could just as easily run via Wigan (and are doing).

That said, the stations are all very 1970s and utilitarian, even post-tarting-up. I'd love to see Liverpool Central rebuilt again, only this time making it more impressive with both a new ground-level building to replace the run-down shopping arcade, plus opening out the Northern Line platform area to have an uplit, cleaned concrete ceiling and feature platforms (a bit like the Haagse Tramtunnel, maybe, which has wooden platforms, though for fire safety it'd likely have to be wood-effect tile), perhaps with impressive murals, a bit more like the disused platform at James St and less like the present dump.

I love the way each station in Hamburg, a comparable global port city (at least historically), has its own character and style, and I'd love to see that unseat the boring utilitarian nature of Merseyrail's underground stations.
There was talk about not rebuilding Central, but opening a new Loop-Link interchange with an entrance (among others) on Whitechapel, using the vacated old Head Post Office as the station building (shades of what is being done in New York at the "new" Penn Station). A detailed map of the Loop and Link showing their relationship to the street plan (Maund, p. 32), shows that the Loop and Link run parallel at different levels under Church Street. I don't know what the difference in level is.

This would be very central for the shops, but further to walk from Lime Street for the minority who need to interchange. I don't have information to say whether or not a Whitechapel station could be built as twin island platforms for the Northern Line , but even a single wide island would be better than the narrow relic that serves the Northern Line at Central now. Interchange between Loop and Link would be by cross-passages and steps/escalators, though there would have to be some lifts for step-free access for the disabled. I have no idea if this proposal is still live. It sounds like a good one to me.
 

Bletchleyite

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If this map is correct:


...then it would be so close to James St that it could replace that, but would be a nuisance for Bold St etc. I don't think I'd support it on that basis.

I do think a single wide, unobstructed island would work fine, provided there were a couple of reversing sidings. It'd have some advantages, e.g. no last minute platform alterations. Could be done on the current site too, though - either way you'd still have a closure to build it, you can only build a side-platform station with no closure. They'd just have to knock through the "header tunnel" that runs parallel to the existing one - you can just about see the arch entering it on the way into Central from the north.

If that map is correct, it also explains the answer to the original thread question - why can't Exchange be used - because the Wirral Line runs quite a long way away from it, so you'd get a lengthy walk through tunnels to reach it.

(The "entrance to station" marked is the Old Hall St entrance which is or was peak-only, not the main one which is pretty much exactly where the Wirral Line blob is).
 
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upasalmon

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All I know is the entrances to Moorfields to Dale Street was the subject of an epic bust up between the city council Merseyrail over the condition of the entrances and who was responsible for the upkeep .
 

Djgr

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It is, the frontage is very nice indeed.
But frontage is all there is. There honestly isn't a disused railway station hidden behind it!

All I know is the entrances to Moorfields to Dale Street was the subject of an epic bust up between the city council Merseyrail over the condition of the entrances and who was responsible for the upkeep .

Sort of. I think the main dispute was who was going to pay to fix the broken escalator from street level UP to the Moorfields ticket hall entrance. I seem to remember that it looks months to resolve.
 
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Ianigsy

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If you were doing the same thing now, you could have escalators down to the ticket hall from within the old frontage of Exchange with retail outlets around. Unfortunately the Dale Street-Tithebarn Street area is the oldest developed part of the city centre, with all that entails in terms of complications.

Calgary has a functioning walkway system at first floor level, but they were building from scratch and it's fully enclosed so enables the city centre to operate unhindered in the winter.
 

frodshamfella

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But frontage is all there is. There honestly isn't a disused railway station hidden behind it!



Sort of. I think the main dispute was who was going to pay to fix the broken escalator from street level UP to the Moorfields ticket hall entrance. I seem to remember that it looks months to resolve.

Yes I know that

It has to be said, though, that for most users of what is now the Northern Line, the present situation is wildly better than the pre-1979 situation. Merseyrail is really quite a good operation, and one of the few local rail services that would come close to meeting muster in a comparable large German city. And it's about to get new EMUs meeting that sort of standard, too.

Yes, the direct Scottish services were lost, but those could just as easily run via Wigan (and are doing).

That said, the stations are all very 1970s and utilitarian, even post-tarting-up. I'd love to see Liverpool Central rebuilt again, only this time making it more impressive with both a new ground-level building to replace the run-down shopping arcade, plus opening out the Northern Line platform area to have an uplit, cleaned concrete ceiling and feature platforms (a bit like the Haagse Tramtunnel, maybe, which has wooden platforms, though for fire safety it'd likely have to be wood-effect tile), perhaps with impressive murals, a bit more like the disused platform at James St and less like the present dump.

I love the way each station in Hamburg, a comparable global port city (at least historically), has its own character and style, and I'd love to see that unseat the boring utilitarian nature of Merseyrail's underground stations.

I know they need more platform capacity at Central is that possible ?
 

Bletchleyite

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I know they need more platform capacity at Central is that possible ?

What, knocking through the header tunnel? It'd cost, but it'd be possible, I'm sure. There's basically nothing of much worth on top of the station (bar the shopping centre that needs knocking down, a couple of Network Rail buildings and a car park) so you could dig it all up again and open it out to do the work if you wanted, as was done in the 70s. Indeed, you could probably work out a way to do it for nowt by sticking (student?) flats on top and flogging them.
 

frodshamfella

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What, knocking through the header tunnel? It'd cost, but it'd be possible, I'm sure. There's basically nothing of much worth on top of the station (bar the shopping centre that needs knocking down, a couple of Network Rail buildings and a car park) so you could dig it all up again and open it out to do the work if you wanted, as was done in the 70s. Indeed, you could probably work out a way to do it for nowt by sticking (student?) flats on top and flogging them.


Well someone did say ' Build Build Build ' recently...or was it 'Dig.Dig.Dig.' . He said ' world class track n trace ' too !
 

Ianno87

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Are/were there any good books at the time covering th planning/construction of the Loop and Link?
 

S&CLER

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Are/were there any good books at the time covering th planning/construction of the Loop and Link?
By far the best is T.B. Maund, Merseyrail Electrics: The Inside Story (2001), from which I've quoted several times. It relies on information from Roy Hughes, the Projects 0fficer of Merseyside PTE in the 1970s, and guiding spirit of the Loop and Link. (His ashes are behind the plaque in Moorfields station.) There is information in Maund which I've never seen in public anywhere else. Unfortunately the book is out of print. I cannot recommend it too highly.
 

Ianno87

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By far the best is T.B. Maund, Merseyrail Electrics: The Inside Story (2001), from which I've quoted several times. It relies on information from Roy Hughes, the Projects 0fficer of Merseyside PTE in the 1970s, and guiding spirit of the Loop and Link. (His ashes are behind the plaque in Moorfields station.) There is information in Maund which I've never seen in public anywhere else. Unfortunately the book is out of print. I cannot recommend it too highly.

Thank you - will keep an eye out for it.
 

Bletchleyite

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Are/were there any good books at the time covering th planning/construction of the Loop and Link?

I've got a copy of this somewhere:


but I doubt it's still in print!
 
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