Why was there a Red Stripe Scotrail livery

Discussion in 'Railway History & Nostalgia' started by robertclark125, 11 Aug 2019.

  1. robertclark125

    robertclark125 Established Member

    Messages:
    1,531
    Joined:
    12 Mar 2008
    Location:
    Cardenden, Fife
    As is well known, there was a blue stripe Scotrail Livery, which was applied to all the push pull 47s, 47701-17, and also to just one class 47/4, 47461 at Inverness. Other 47/4s at Inverness, which had Scotrail branding, carried the red stripe version. It was simply the intercity executive livery, but with the InterCity legend replaced with Scotrail.

    It leads me to ask why was there a red stripe Scotrail livery? Why didn't they have all the Scotrail 47/4s in blue stripe livery? And, why did 47461 end up as the only 47/4 to carry the blue stripe version?
     
  2. Registered users do not see these banners - join or log in today!

    Rail Forums

     
  3. Cowley

    Cowley Established Member

    Messages:
    6,299
    Joined:
    15 Apr 2016
    Location:
    Devon
    I’ve sometimes mused about that.
    I wonder if the depot (Inverness?) that painted 47461 in the full Scotrail livery was then told not to do any more 47/4s because the locos could find themselves all over the country at times so it was better to standardise on the red stripe version?
    Or possibly that they knew that many of the Scottish 47s would be displaced by Sprinters in a few years time and again to keep the livery reasonably standard?
     
  4. hexagon789

    hexagon789 Established Member

    Messages:
    5,812
    Joined:
    2 Sep 2016
    Location:
    Glasgow
    I wonder if it was repainted initially so it could deputise for the 47/7s while still keeping the look of a train in full ScotRail colours?

    It was repainted in February 1986 which is just before push-pull was extended to Edinburgh-Aberdeen and even when that route was push-pull on two of the three daily internals, it seemed to have the most frequent substitutions of non push-pull locos of the 3 "Express" routes, indeed it reverted to standard haulage in 1988. 47461 itself features a few times on that route deputising for a 47/7.

    That it doesn't explain why it was the only one, but Cowley's reasoning on that matter is very possible, it certainly turned up at the likes of Sheffield and Derby while still in "blue stripe" livery.
     
  5. Helvellyn

    Helvellyn Established Member

    Messages:
    1,295
    Joined:
    28 Aug 2009
    The Executive livery was used for multi-purpose locos in the early days of sectorisation before dedicating locos to the sectors (and sub-sectors) really took hold. Think how many 47s and 73s got it as well as the 86/4s that ended up as Parcels and Railfreight locos. I guess that with the regions still fairly strong there was a desire for the Scottish 47/4s to carry ScotRail branding even though they were carrying the Executive livery.

    Once InterCity swallow came along Mainline livery evolved for general purpose locos before full sectorisation took hold. In the case of Mainline look at how many 37/4s gained it from Large Logo, even though the only InterCity duties were the Fort William Sleeper and the odd InterCity Land Cruise charter.
     
  6. pdeaves

    pdeaves Established Member

    Messages:
    2,282
    Joined:
    14 Sep 2014
    Location:
    Gateway to the South West
    Might the difference be that the blue stripes were 'Regional Railways' and red ones were 'InterCity', but they both were based/used in Scotland? Just a thought from someone not 'into' rolling stock!
     
  7. Cowley

    Cowley Established Member

    Messages:
    6,299
    Joined:
    15 Apr 2016
    Location:
    Devon
    I am quite into a bit of paint froth. Especially from that era. :lol:
    Most of the 47s that were painted into the Scottish version of Intercity executive livery were allocated to the Provincial sector in 1986/87, this includes Inverness and Eastfield locos. I’m not sure if Haymarket had any 47s allocated after the 47/7s were transferred to Eastfield? But I don’t believe so.
    I always thought that 47461 was either a mistake or possibly an Inverness depot ‘pet’ that they somehow got away with.
     
  8. Shaw S Hunter

    Shaw S Hunter Established Member

    Messages:
    2,081
    Joined:
    21 Apr 2016
    Location:
    Sunny South Lancs
    Two possibilities occurred to me:
    1. The need to have a non push-pull loco in the livery for publicity purposes
    2. The desire to have the livery seen in Inverness on a regular basis
    Both "excuses" come from an operating necessity of ensuring 47/7s were always available in sufficient numbers to cover their booked duties.

    Given the size of the 47/7 fleet I'm not sure that I really believe either possibility but they could quite easily have been put forward as justification by a manager in Inverness wishing to "get in on the action". Incidentally the layout of the livery precluded use of the usual Inverness depot logo as it would have rather messed up the overall look regardless of position so instead the Highland stag was applied in white stencil form on the engine compartment doors on each side of the body. One of these disappeared within a few months.
     
  9. robertclark125

    robertclark125 Established Member

    Messages:
    1,531
    Joined:
    12 Mar 2008
    Location:
    Cardenden, Fife
    I forgot to point out, 47461 was originally, despite being a Scottish machine, in 1985, gained Intercity Executive livery, with the Intercity name, but in February 1986, as mentioned above, not only had the Intercity legend replaced with Scotrail, but had the red stripe replaced with blue.
     
  10. hexagon789

    hexagon789 Established Member

    Messages:
    5,812
    Joined:
    2 Sep 2016
    Location:
    Glasgow
    That tradition died hard, some of the InterCity West Coast Mk3s loaned to ScotRail in 1989/90 gained rudimentary blue stripes over the red when they stood in to allow the Scottish Mk3s to go south for refurbishment prior to transferring to ICWC.

    Seems as though the Scottish depots liked to assert their 'individuality'!
     
  11. dubscottie

    dubscottie Member

    Messages:
    653
    Joined:
    4 Apr 2010
    The story goes (IIRC) like this..

    As the 47/0 were going through Crewe works for ETH conversion in the mid 80s, the Scottish allocated conversions were funded by Provincial so got large logo livery.

    Locos that were allocated south of the border but would end up in Scotland after conversion to 47/4 were funded by InterCity.

    These got InterCity as they were to be used on Sleepers, the Clansman & Cross Country trains with IC liveried stock.

    As they would also be used on internal services, they got ScotRail branding.

    It could have been the other way round! I will need to dig out a old magazine but there was a pattern to which locos got which livery when ETH was installed.

    47461 got ScotRail livery after collision repairs I think.
     
  12. dubscottie

    dubscottie Member

    Messages:
    653
    Joined:
    4 Apr 2010
    I found the magazine from 1987 and I have it the wrong way round above!

    Scottish 47/0 that were to remain in Scotland after conversion to 47/4 got InterCity with ScotRail branding.

    English/Welsh 47/0 that were going to be transferred to Scotland after conversion to 47/4 got large logo livery.

    47461 got InterCity also but was repainted in ScotRail at Inverness weeks later to cover fire damage.
     
  13. Helvellyn

    Helvellyn Established Member

    Messages:
    1,295
    Joined:
    28 Aug 2009
    That doesn't quite ring true though, as not all ScotRail red stripe locos received that livery at conversion. For example, 47541 carried BR Blue upon emergence as an ETH fitted loco (its first TOPS number) and then gained BR Large Logo, InterCity Executive and then ScotRail branding.

    However, there could be a logic to it for the latter conversions where out of 47640-47644 that went to Scotland upon conversion, 47640/641/644 gained large logo livery but 47642/643 were repainted directly into ScotRail red stripe livery. Interestingly, class47.co.uk would seem to have evidence that 47637 was repainted into InterCity Executive colours upon conversion to a Class 47/4 but then gained the ScotRail branding.

    I wonder whether as sectorisation developed that InterCity funded the repaints of some Class 47/4s into the Executive livery but because they could be used by ScotRail during the day (the majority of use would be the Sleepers) an agreement was reached that they would carry ScotRail branding? That would make more sense than split funding of the conversions.

    With regards the CrossCountry services this would be Carstairs-Edinburgh portions of the long distance "Scot" services and those only going to Manchester or Birmingham. One of The CrossCountry services also ran up to Aberdeen (The Devon Scot was Aberdeen/Glasgow to Plymouth).

    Again, using class47.co.uk as the source only seven locos gained the ScotRail red stripe livery - 47430, 47469, 47492, 47541, 47637 (retained when renumber 47826), 47642 and 47643.
     
  14. Cowley

    Cowley Established Member

    Messages:
    6,299
    Joined:
    15 Apr 2016
    Location:
    Devon
    Interesting stuff dubscottie. These were my observations from back then.
    When I first got into it, ETH converted 47/4s were mainly being outshopped in large logo.
    I think most of the last batch 47629 - 665 were painted into large logo, with a few well known exceptions (47637 + 47642 and 47643 in Intercity Scotrail livery).
    The extended fuel range batch (650 - 665) were in LL but with large ‘Westies’ on the side (which they soon lost).
    Looking back on it, any loco painted in Intercity Exec seemed somehow more glamorous than one in bog standard large logo. Which was complete wibble of course because they were both exactly the same underneath the paint. :lol:
    It’s interesting to read about the make up of which 47s were being converted from steam heat to electric heat during the 1980s. Certainly a lot of ex WR carried on being passenger machines rather than ending up as pure freight locos.
     
  15. Cowley

    Cowley Established Member

    Messages:
    6,299
    Joined:
    15 Apr 2016
    Location:
    Devon
    I spent ages writing my post out, and by the time I’d posted it you’d posted a far more interesting one. :lol:
    I must admit that I hadn’t realised that there were only seven of them in this livery (not including 461 for obvious reasons).
    47637 is quite an interesting one, as it - along with large logo, Scottish garb 47636 “Sir John de Graeme” ended up working Waterloo - Exeter services in 1988 complete with ‘Network Southeast’ stock.
    This would have been astonishing two years before.

    It just goes to show how short this time period was.
    Scotrail had accumulated an impressive fleet of personalised 47/4s, 47/7s
    and 37/4s all with ETH and many with evocative locally inspired names, mini snowploughs and black headcode panels by 1987/88. And although it’s often looked back on as a certain special period in time, it only actually lasted a few years...
    Coming from Devon it was a different world to me as a fifteen year old when I first made it up there.
     
    Last edited: 13 Aug 2019
  16. D1537

    D1537 Member

    Messages:
    7
    Joined:
    11 Jul 2019
    They started off painting them all large logo - so 630 and 633, Inverness locos, got it, but then they changed it so that Inverness machines got ScotRail and Eastfield ones got large logo ... so Scotrail for 637, 642 and 643 and large loco for Eastfield ones 635, 636, 640, 641 and 644. As mentioned above, 637 was originally outshopped in InterCity - why, who knows? probably in error - but very swiftly changed to ScotRail branding.

    461 was a distinct oddity and looked very out of place when it strayed - which it did quite a bit, I have photos of it at Brighton and Bristol - whereas some of the Scotties, notably 464 and 550, seemed to have an allergy to England!
     
  17. dubscottie

    dubscottie Member

    Messages:
    653
    Joined:
    4 Apr 2010
    461 was odd. The mag I have shows it in InterCity (and branding) at overhaul.

    From what I can workout, 461 was the third (after 487 & 406) to carry that livery. Weeks later it was in ScotRail.

    Just to add confusion.. There was a real expectation at the time that the last few 47/4 conversions would get Trans-Pennine (Provincial) livery.

    Also the LLB locos sent to Scotland had working (but isolated) steam heat boilers.

    I can scan and post bits from the magazines if anyone is interested?
     
    Last edited: 15 Aug 2019
  18. Cowley

    Cowley Established Member

    Messages:
    6,299
    Joined:
    15 Apr 2016
    Location:
    Devon
    Yes definitely interested.
    I hadn’t realised that 461 was only the 3rd one into Exec either.

    @D1537 that all makes sense.
     

Share This Page