Why were CrossCountry services diverted away from Pontefract Baghill ?

[Chris Butler]

I was watching Geoff Marshall's video about Ponteract Baghill today. Living in Somerset and not travelling through to York often, I had always assumed that some Cross Country services ran direct from Sheffield to York via Pontefract Baghill. In fact, now I check, all Cross-Country services are routed via either Leeds or via Doncaster.

I am interested in why there are no direct trains via Pontefract. Obviously Leeds and Doncaster are major traffic generators, but the Pontefract route seems so empty and (I think) shorter, that I assumed it would make sense for some services to aim for the through traffic.

I don't know the line (obviously !) so perhaps it is painfully slow.

I'd welcome anybody educating me on why, what looks on paper like a useful link, is so little used.

 

[swt_passenger]

Your thread title doesn’t seem to match your question? Have you written Leeds instead of York?

I remember XC going through Pontefract when I used the route regularly in the 70s, I don’t know when it was changed, but I always assumed via Leeds or Doncaster were seen as generating more traffic.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I was watching Geoff Marshall's video about Ponteract Baghill today. Living in Somerset and not travelling through to York often, I had always assumed that some Cross Country services ran direct from Sheffield to York via Pontefract Baghill. In fact, now I check, all Cross-Country services are routed via either Leeds or via Doncaster.

I am interested in why there are no direct trains via Pontefract. Obviously Leeds and Doncaster are major traffic generators, but the Pontefract route seems so empty and (I think) shorter, that I assumed it would make sense for some services to aim for the through traffic.

I don't know the line (obviously !) so perhaps it is painfully slow.

I'd welcome anybody educating me on why, what looks on paper like a useful link, is so little used.

Sheffield to York was cut in 1991 due to shortage of rolling stock and has declined in frequency ever since. However I have heard Transport for the north analysing a regular service as part of the next Northern franchise.

 

[yorkie]

Your thread title doesn’t seem to match your question? Have you written Leeds instead of York?

I have amended the title accordingly.

It's not viable to run a regular service from Sheffield to York avoiding Doncaster/Leeds because the journey time is no faster than via Doncaster, and so there is no benefit. But there would be a clear and obvious disbenefit: losing the Doncaster calls would reduce the ease of access to the XC network for many people who have direct trains to Doncaster.

 

[Chris Butler]

I have amended the title accordingly.

It's not viable to run a regular service from Sheffield to York avoiding Doncaster/Leeds because the journey time is no faster than via Doncaster, and so there is no benefit. But there would be a clear and obvious disbenefit: losing the Doncaster calls would reduce the ease of access to the XC network for many people who have direct trains to Doncaster.

Thanks for amending the title. My mistake.

It's not really a "Speculative Idea". I'm more interesting in understanding why and or any history rather than in suggesting there should be use of this route.

Yes, of course a direct train loses traffic, but it also uses an empty route rather than clogging up well used routes so there is some benefit. Perhaps not enough, but there is some.

I suspected that the route was slower than the ECML. Is that because of the inherent geography of the Pontefract route or because the route is maintained/signalled (for freight) speeds lower than it is capable of ?

Info/history very welcome.

 

[Chris Butler]

Your thread title doesn’t seem to match your question? Have you written Leeds instead of York?

Yes.

 

[Mag_seven]

Obviously Leeds and Doncaster are major traffic generators

That's why they don't run via Pontefract Baghill!

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Thanks for amending the title. My mistake.

It's not really a "Speculative Idea". I'm more interesting in understanding why and or any history rather than in suggesting there should be use of this route.

Yes, of course a direct train loses traffic, but it also uses an empty route rather than clogging up well used routes so there is some benefit. Perhaps not enough, but there is some.

I suspected that the route was slower than the ECML. Is that because of the inherent geography of the Pontefract route or because the route is maintained/signalled (for freight) speeds lower than it is capable of ?

Info/history very welcome.

Back in 1988 the line had a better service, 7 trains per day including a summer service to Scarborough but cut in 1991 to the present level due to shortage of stock.

 

[yorkie]

Thanks for amending the title. My mistake.

It's not really a "Speculative Idea". I'm more interesting in understanding why and or any history...

OK my misunderstanding; I have edited the title again and moved it; hopefully it is clearer now! I will see if I can dig out some previous posts on this subject too...

The history:

T
The main line trains were diverted via Doncaster or Leeds in the 70s or 80s IIRC, as the direct route was plagued by speed restrictions due to pitfalls, and the Selby cutoff made Donny a viable route (there was massive route rationalisation north of Sheffield in that area as well...

I think this must have happened in stages.

From when I started using them circa 1980 the primary Sheffield-York route for Cross Country was from Wath Road Junction (Swinton) via Cudworth to Goose Hill Junction (Normanton), then on via Castleford to York. I think those running via Leeds must have come off at Altofts Jn - the curve from Moorthorpe to South Kirby is shown as freight only in the 1980 Baker.

With the completion of the curve from Swinton towards Mexborough in about 1987 the main Cross Country route became via Doncaster, with Leeds trains running via Moorthorpe. Wath Road Junction to Cudworth North was closed completely and Cudworth North to Goose Hill plus Castleford to Burton Salmon closed to passengers. The Sheffield-Leeds local service also started to run via Moorthorpe at some point, reducing the need for Sheffield-York trains since Leeds would have been a more attractive destination at the southern end of the route.

I don't recall Cross Country running via Baghill during the 80s although I imagine it would have been a diversionary route.

....The full length of the Selby Deviation became available in October 1983, and advantage was taken of the much better route this provided north of Doncaster to move cross-country trains off the S&K to run via Aldwarke Jn and Thrybergh Jn to Mexborough, and thence to Doncaster and York, ginving Doncaster rather than Pontefract a cross-country service. This route was dramatically improved when the Swinton curve towards Mexborough, which had been closed to all traffic in 1965, was restored and re-opened in March 1990.

As a result of the move of the cross-country trains the situation on the S&K was that the southern half saw the Leeds traffic whilst the northern half saw no long-distance traffic any more.....

Between York and Sheffield, the direct ie not via Leeds, trains ran non-stop via Pontefract Baghill, until the opening of the Selby diversion meant trains could call at Doncaster without losing time

The economics:

...I am sure that Doncaster would generate more passengers and interchange opportunities than Pontefract......

Indeed, to get the Dearne Valley to match you'd need 20~ miles to be reasonably straight track cleared for 125mph, like the Doncaster route offers north of Donny. May I suggest the fact that XC are keen on all services running via Leeds in lieu of Doncaster suggest that the Leeds market is worth more than a fast Sheffield-York service?

Indeed; let's not forget that if XC had their way there would be no fast trains between York and Sheffield taking around 50min; all trains would be slower and go via Leeds!


Journey times are similar; of course it used to be quicker via Pontefract (before the Selby Diversion was built):

Experience of diverted XC trains suggests that the S&K route would come in at under 50 minutes between York and Sheffield, but that substantial work would be needed to make significant improvements to the times. Meanwhile, York to Sheffield with a 2-minute stop in Doncaster in 45 minutes is very easily possible if a decent path can be obtained....

If I remember correctly, the best net schedule times on 10 February via Pontefract shewn in Realtime Trains (but no longer accessible) were 43 minutes both ways, and at least one train southbound (1O86 - I havne't got the full details, but I think a Newcastle to Bournemouth) made it in 43 minutes. The best I found on a quick check northbound was 45 minutes (1E82).
Via Doncaster the WTT net times appear to be 21½ minutes York to Doncaster (the very slow approach to platform 4) and then 19½ minutes Doncaster to Sheffield. Northbound it's 18 minutes Sheffield to Doncaster and 18½ minutes Doncaster to York — which suggests a net best time of 40 minutes including a stop at Doncaster. I have actually known 40 minutes non-stop via Doncaster. As Yorkie says, the Doncaster route easily wins and has the advantage of allowing a large town and major connecting centre to be served. I doubt if even heavy investment in the Pontefract line could get it up to what is already possible via Doncaster.

 

[tbtc]

Previously, the "Cross Country" services were a muddle of routes beyond Sheffield - there were Doncaster services, Pontefract services, Leeds services and also some "Doncaster and Leeds" services (given the low frequency, a service via both ticked a few boxes)

All that remains is the token Sheffield - Pontefract - York service run by Northern, which is pretty useless (but recently upgraded from two services per day to three per day)

What we really need is something like west of the Pennines, where the previous "Birmingham - Manchester - Scotland services have been replaced by a faster Birmingham - Wigan - Scotland service (and regular Birmingham - Manchester services and Manchester - Scotland services). So that we'd have a regular Birmingham - Leeds service and a Birmingham - Doncaster - Scotland service (providing a faster Scottish service than the current service via Leeds).

Also worth pointing out that services via Doncaster could be sped up further if pathing were better - they can wait for a long time there (depending on what's running fast up the ECML).

Yes, of course a direct train loses traffic, but it also uses an empty route rather than clogging up well used routes so there is some benefit. Perhaps not enough, but there is some

I can see where you are coming from, but the busy routes are busy for a reason (and the empty route is similarly empty for a reason)

I suspected that the route was slower than the ECML. Is that because of the inherent geography of the Pontefract route or because the route is maintained/signalled (for freight) speeds lower than it is capable of ?

IIRC there's a 20mph speed restriction given the legacy of mining around Castleford/ Pontefract (?) - so whilst it's a direct double track route from Swinton to York, it's not a particularly fast line (and doesn't serve any significant intermediate station - given that the station in Pontefract is separate to the other two stations in the town that have services to Wakefield/ Leeds etc, so not great for integration).

Indeed; let's not forget that if XC had their way there would be no fast trains between York and Sheffield taking around 50min; all trains would be slower and go via Leeds!

Given the loadings, I can see why - the loadings coming through Leeds can be horrendous - but XC have had to plug the gap in services from Doncaster towards York/ Newcastle over the years, due to the ECML operator speeding up services by omitting Donny (something that the bi-hourly London - York service redressed, with plans for more services at Doncaster - but it's another example of an area where XC are left with the responsibility of providing services that other TOCs have moved away from (so short distance passengers end up on long distance services).

 

[Taunton]

There was an article in Modern Railways, quite some years ago (BR days), describing the various rearrangements that had taken place around the Sheffield-York axis of NE-SW services, and the principal cause for the changes was given as mining subsidence. I forget the various routings, but there was a diversion to route B for some years while route A was fixed up, then it changed to route A and route B was just let go.

Come privatisation and the attraction of routing via Doncaster or via Leeds for traffic generation (euphemism for Orcats-raiding), particularly intra-Yorkshire local revenue, trumped any timesaving on the direct line.

 

[swt_passenger]

I just about remember when trying to do Newcastle to Plymouth on a Sunday in the early seventies that only a couple of trains would allow you to do the whole through journey. For most of the day you could change at just about any major station between Sheffield and Bristol inclusive and wait for the next Plymouth train...

But I also remember the trains from Newcastle almost never called at Leeds?

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

In BR days the main routing for NE-SW services was via the ex-Midland Railway route (via Castleford and Normanton) but subsidence related speed restrictions led to a move to the ex-GC route (via Pontefract). Indeed much of that Midland route through Yorkshire no longer exists. Of course the GC route also has speed restrictions so running via Doncaster soon became the favoured route for faster running with HSTs. Then add in the traffic volume available at Leeds while looking to avoid turning trains round there, not to mention providing through journeys northwards from Wakefield, and you have the service pattern we see today.

 

[edwin_m]

What we really need is something like west of the Pennines, where the previous "Birmingham - Manchester - Scotland services have been replaced by a faster Birmingham - Wigan - Scotland service (and regular Birmingham - Manchester services and Manchester - Scotland services). So that we'd have a regular Birmingham - Leeds service and a Birmingham - Doncaster - Scotland service (providing a faster Scottish service than the current service via Leeds).

There's also a need to serve the market between Leeds and Scotland. TPE will do that but only as far as Edinburgh.

 

[ac6000cw]

but subsidence related speed restrictions led to a move to the ex-GC route (via Pontefract).

Small point - the route via Pontefract Baghill is the ex- 'Swinton & Knottingley Joint Railway' originally owned by the Midland and the North Eastern railways (later LMS and LNER). It's not ex-GC...

Up to the late 1960s/early 1970s, that was the normal Sheffield - York route for expresses, but due to subsidence problems BR moved those trains over to the historic Midland route via Cudworth, Oakenshaw and Normanton. Trains diverged at Altofts Junction for Leeds or York (most Leeds trains bypassed Wakefield as a consequence - those that did call there used a slow, tortuous route via the junctions near Oakenshaw to reach Wakefield Westgate). I used those trains in the late 1970's so I got to know the route quite well.

(From memory) Later on, BR moved the trains back to the S&K (after the subsidence problems were fixed), with Leeds trains diverging at Moorthorpe (allowing all of them to serve Wakefield). Then, because of the passenger traffic potential, some of the Sheffield-York IC trains were re-routed via Doncaster - the faster 125 mph running north of there compensated for the slower Sheffield-Doncaster leg. Over time since then that's become the standard route, for good commercial reasons.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

The switch to routing via Doncaster or Leeds came during sectorisation and the drive to make InterCity profitable - it was able to offload the costs of the S&K route onto Regional Railways and use routes for which it was largely already paying for. The same happened with XC Cardiff services being diverted via Bristol Parkway enabling it to offload the costs of the Chepstow route. Running via Leeds also enabled combination with Newcastle / Edinburgh services, and Doncaster offered good connections for Hull , North Lincs etc so it was a sensible plan.

 

[Dr Hoo]

The switch to routing via Doncaster or Leeds came during sectorisation and the drive to make InterCity profitable - it was able to offload the costs of the S&K route onto Regional Railways and use routes for which it was largely already paying for. The same happened with XC Cardiff services being diverted via Bristol Parkway enabling it to offload the costs of the Chepstow route. Running via Leeds also enabled combination with Newcastle / Edinburgh services, and Doncaster offered good connections for Hull , North Lincs etc so it was a sensible plan.

...is the right answer. Congratulations, Sir Felix.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

(From memory) Later on, BR moved the trains back to the S&K (after the subsidence problems were fixed), with Leeds trains diverging at Moorthorpe (allowing all of them to serve Wakefield). Then, because of the passenger traffic potential, some of the Sheffield-York IC trains were re-routed via Doncaster - the faster 125 mph running north of there compensated for the slower Sheffield-Doncaster leg. Over time since then that's become the standard route, for good commercial reasons.

Prior to BR implementing this re-routing the connection at Moorthorpe did not exist. However sidings already existed at that location on the GN route, serving South Kirkby Colliery, which did mean construction time for the connection was fairly short.

 

[edwin_m]

Prior to BR implementing this re-routing the connection at Moorthorpe did not exist. However sidings already existed at that location on the GN route, serving South Kirkby Colliery, which did mean construction time for the connection was fairly short.

The curve and junction are shown on the 1914 Railway Clearing House map: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/...Swinton-_Wath-_ath_Road_&_Lowfield_RJD_44.jpg

I believe there were tracks from the curve into the colliery alongside but independent of the GN, but this shows there was a connection in 1914. I believe BR re-built it at a later date, and there may have been a period with no connection. Bit of trivia from another forum is that there is a 125 Midland milepost from St Pancras on this curve, despite the mileage having been measured from a zero near South Kirkby for a period of at least several decades.

 

[ac6000cw]

Just checked in the earliest S. K. Baker rail atlas I have - the 1984 Fourth Edition - the ex-Midland line through Cudworth is shown as freight-only, and the Moorthorpe connection exists.

So, out of interest, does anyone know which year the BR 'NE/SW' IC services moved back to the S&K from the Cudworth route?

 

[Spartacus]

A few were retained unit fairly recently I'm told simply for route knowledge, until it was realised that the chances of both Leeds and Doncaster being blocked was so low it wasn't really worth losing passengers from Doncaster or Leeds.

Overall it's a line that could do with a better service, but suffers from a general lack of resources to operate an increased service, it falling across three local areas making local subsidisation 'a bit difficult', but perhaps as significant as anything a lack of capacity, especially at the Sheffield end, but that's been gone into a lot of times before.

 

[30907]

Just checked in the earliest S. K. Baker rail atlas I have - the 1984 Fourth Edition - the ex-Midland line through Cudworth is shown as freight-only, and the Moorthorpe connection exists.

So, out of interest, does anyone know which year the BR 'NE/SW' IC services moved back to the S&K from the Cudworth route?

It was after 1980 (date of Baker 3rd edition!) and I think it coincided with the opening of the Selby deviation in 1983 (at least for the York route - going via Doncaster made sense after that; not sure about the Moorthorpe curve, that may have been earlier, as it is shown on the 1977 Baker).

 

[trebor79]

I was on an XC train in the early 2000s that was diverted via this route. It seemed a very slow trundle past various freight depots.
Further delay was caused by an incorrect route being given before we left the ECML - signaller had set the route to send us to Doncaster. Only time I'vee experienced emergency braking on an HST, and we still had to set back over the junction.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Small point - the route via Pontefract Baghill is the ex- 'Swinton & Knottingley Joint Railway' originally owned by the Midland and the North Eastern railways (later LMS and LNER). It's not ex-GC...

In the complex web of lines in south/west Yorks, it was the Doncaster-Wakefield Westgate (-Leeds) line which was originally GN and GC joint (the West Riding & Grimsby).
The GC from Sheffield to Leeds ran via Wath and connected into this line near Hare Park - all gone now of course.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

The curve and junction are shown on the 1914 Railway Clearing House map: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/...Swinton-_Wath-_ath_Road_&_Lowfield_RJD_44.jpg

I believe there were tracks from the curve into the colliery alongside but independent of the GN, but this shows there was a connection in 1914. I believe BR re-built it at a later date, and there may have been a period with no connection. Bit of trivia from another forum is that there is a 125 Midland milepost from St Pancras on this curve, despite the mileage having been measured from a zero near South Kirkby for a period of at least several decades.

The earlier existence of a formation would certainly explain why BR was able to (re)build it so quickly!

Just checked in the earliest S. K. Baker rail atlas I have - the 1984 Fourth Edition - the ex-Midland line through Cudworth is shown as freight-only, and the Moorthorpe connection exists.

So, out of interest, does anyone know which year the BR 'NE/SW' IC services moved back to the S&K from the Cudworth route?

According to my haulage records my last trip via Cudworth was in June 1983 with my first IC over the S&K in the same month. But I also had the famous Blackpool-Sheffield via the Moorthorpe curve in July 1982 and an IC via Leeds and Moorthorpe in October 1982. This all suggests that there was, in typical BR fashion, a period of overlap.

A separate record, which I think was derived from Pathfinder Tours' excellent route descriptions included in their tour booklets, says that the surplus part of the Cudworth route was closed from 1st June 1987. And if you think all that is a little messy try checking the history under BR of routes in the Rotherham/Swinton area!

Next time I am rummaging through my storage boxes I will have to find my old Bakers: I believe I have all editions from the 1980s and 1990s.

 

[edwin_m]

The earlier existence of a formation would certainly explain why BR was able to (re)build it so quickly!

As well as the 1914 maps and the 1980 Baker, the curve appears on four OK maps on NLS with revision dates up to 1961. It may have been removed after 1961 and reinstated sometime before 1980. Rail Map Online also suggests South Kirkby Junction moved at some stage. But that Midland milepost suggests to me that the curve was there continuously, even though it may for a time only have served the colliery with no connection to the Leeds-Doncaster line.

 

[ac6000cw]

According to my haulage records my last trip via Cudworth was in June 1983 with my first IC over the S&K in the same month. But I also had the famous Blackpool-Sheffield via the Moorthorpe curve in July 1982 and an IC via Leeds and Moorthorpe in October 1982. This all suggests that there was, in typical BR fashion, a period of overlap.

Thanks for the info - that ties in with my travels through the area on IC trains between 1976 and 1980, which were (as far as I remember) all via Cudworth. Except that is for one trip on a summer Saturday only 'rare mileage' working in about 1977 from Birmingham to Bradford, with a class 31 and 6/7 Mk1's, which travelled via Barnsley and Halifax - at one point the driver had to stop the train because the signaller had set the wrong route...

As LNW-GW Joint said, it was certainly a complex web of lines in that area - the Midland, GC, NE, GN, L&Y and Hull & Barnsley were all in there somewhere.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

The 'Rail Chronology' website has a page on the 'Moorthorpe Curve' with the relevant dates:-

http://www.railchronology.free-online.co.uk/Moorthorpe curve.htm

1 May 1967: some Sheffield – Leeds trains restored, being diverted from the Midland Cudworth route to serve Wakefield Westgate [Joy is in error in quoting 7 October 1968]

7 October 1968: Sheffield – Leeds via Normanton trains diverted from Cudworth route because of severe speed restrictions in consequence of mining subsidence (they ran forward via Hare Park and Calder Bridge)

1 May 1972: Sheffield – Leeds via Normanton trains reverted to Cudworth route upon lifting of most speed restrictions

7 May 1973: Sheffield – Leeds via Wakefield trains reverted to Cudworth route (they used the Oakenshaw curve); Moorthorpe Jn – South Kirkby Jn service reduced to summer Saturday only use by Sheffield – Blackpool and Leeds – Weymouth services

18 May 1980: some Sheffield – Leeds Sunday trains restored in addition to the summer Saturday services

4 October 1982: Sheffield – Leeds trains restored, being diverted from the Cudworth route in preparation for its demise

This accords with my recollections, particularly the tortuous approach to Wakefield Westgate after 1973. I think the line was severed for time in the 60s, but can't find any evidence for this.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Further to the Moorthorpe curve discussion please note the following line which precedes @Sir Felix Pole's quote from Rail Chronology:

For the next 49 years there was no regular passenger service.

In addition my copy of Wignall (1981) shows the curve as a pre-Beeching closure. I suspect the comment about it having been severed at some point may well be right though it could have been downgraded to siding status making through operation awkward.

As for Baker:
- the 1980 edition shows it as freight only
- by 1984 it's a full-blown passenger route with the Cudworth route now freight only. Note also that the divergence of the Cudworth/S&K routes had been moved south from Wath Rd Jn to Swinton Jn which according to a more recent Quail is the site of the current Swinton S Jn
- 1988 edition shows the Cudworth route completely closed south of Grimethorpe as well as between Oakenshaw S Jn and Goose Hill Jn

In conclusion it is clear that my recollection of the developments was clouded by the physical appearance of the Moorthorpe curve when I first traversed it: new rails, sleepers, ballast and points, and double-track throughout.

 

[class 9]

Prior to BR implementing this re-routing the connection at Moorthorpe did not exist. However sidings already existed at that location on the GN route, serving South Kirkby Colliery, which did mean construction time for the connection was fairly short.

Just looked on the NLS website of a map dated 1888 to 1913 and the curve is there!!!