Why were locos territorial under BR compared to now?

[6Gman]

It was 1974 when WCML electrification to Glasgow was completed and the "Royal Scot" electric locomotives (87s) were introduced. I think that in 1964, 47s started appearing at Paddington on through trains from Snow Hill, Birkenhead etc because the London Midland region took over Birmingham's ex GWR lines in 1963 and the westerns were moved to the western region's other lines. I don't think the Birkenhead/ Wolverhampton/ Snow Hill services to Paddington changed locos en route? Either way, they had ceased by 1967.

They did at Chester! (Train reversed)

 

[Harbornite]

They did at Chester! (Train reversed)

Ah right! I don't think they changed south of Snow Hill though?

Not very often if my memory serves me right, given that there were only 50 of them in the first place! I certainly can't remember them working NE - SW as far north as Birmingham so if they worked any of those services they were replaced at Bristol.

Indeed. They also appeared on Liverpool- South Crosscountry trains but, as you say, they didn't go north of brum on these services either.

Back to NE-SW trains, here's some at University station with 50s on them. (Note to mods, I can't directly post the pics here due to copyright.)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lickeybanker/16084617371/

The 1S61 07:47 Cardiff Central to Glasgow Central Inter-City service was in the care of Class 50 50010 'Monarch' when recorded passing University station, Birmingham on a dull February morning (in 1986). Electric traction would take over at Birmingham New Street and the Fifty would return south on a Penzance service later that morning.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/71592768@N08/6689559919/

Alongside the Worcester & Birmingham canal, 50031 passes Birmingham University with the 08:10 Penzance - Liverpool Lime Street on 14th May 1977.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/71592...fZc-a343W9-h7LyZj-nkEjmo-nSN8Ky-of217w-7LNxyp

English Electric Class 50s 50049 'Defiance' and 50029 'Renown' head 'The Principality', the 07.35 Cardiff Central - Glasgow and Edinburgh past Birmingham University on a cold 31st January 1987. On the left is the Birmingham & Worcester canal which had been drained.

More pics here:

https://www.flickr.com/search/?user_id=41701047@N08&view_all=1&text=class 50

 

[Phil.]

:grin:

Please stop putting apostrophes where they shouldn't be...

My post No. 6 refers. People aren't taught the difference between possessive and plural nowadays - or so it seems.

Oops, there I go being off topic again.
Please Sir Telstarbox started it.
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Just remember also that inter-regional specials would turn up all sorts of displaced locos to excite train spotters. In the halcyon days of the Spalding flower show a Hastings DEMU would work through to Spalding.

 

[richieb1971]

Very interesting guys. But nobody has stated why under privatization there are 73's going up north, 37's are able to now go everywhere now it seems. So i'm guessing the FOC's are happier to have classes sweeping the nation.

I remember under BR class 25's were called "Rats" because they were everywhere. So this loco (I know there were over 300 I think) was maintained everywhere and every region had drivers that could drive them?

 

[theageofthetra]

Wouldn't local loading gauge restrictions also have a part to play? Couldn't for example GWR era locos not fit in parts of the South- the Hastings line restrictions being an extreme example.

 

[30907]

Wouldn't local loading gauge restrictions also have a part to play? Couldn't for example GWR era locos not fit in parts of the South- the Hastings line restrictions being an extreme example.

Hastings apart, that doesn't really apply to diesels.
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Very interesting guys. But nobody has stated why under privatization there are 73's going up north, 37's are able to now go everywhere now it seems. So i'm guessing the FOC's are happier to have classes sweeping the nation.

But those aren't ordinary 73s, they're more like a new loco in an old box (sorry, body).

And the 37s are almost as specialist.

 

[DimTim]

The memory of Southern BCRW type 3 hammering through Doncaster on the Oxwellmains cement!

 

[6Gman]

I remember under BR class 25's were called "Rats" because they were everywhere. So this loco (I know there were over 300 I think) was maintained everywhere and every region had drivers that could drive them?

No. Doubt if the SR had anyone who signed them; on the ER they were - I think - quite rare on the southern parts (might have had booked work to Norwich in the summer); initially very few on the WR, they were transferred in to replace Class 22s from early 70s. Plenty on the LM and ScR.
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I guess other issues were crews in different areas having limited knowledge of different traction and also the fuel range of different types?

Spot on. Traction training is expensive so specific classes were concentrated in particular areas. Early diesels also had fairly low fuel ranges compared to 66s and the like.

 

[PHILIPE]

It was 1974 when WCML electrification to Glasgow was completed and the "Royal Scot" electric locomotives (87s) were introduced. I think that in 1964, 47s started appearing at Paddington on through trains from Snow Hill, Birkenhead etc because the London Midland region took over Birmingham's ex GWR lines in 1963 and the westerns were moved to the western region's other lines. I don't think the Birkenhead/ Wolverhampton/ Snow Hill services to Paddington changed locos en route? Either way, they had ceased by 1967.

As well as Chester (already posted) they changed locos at Wplverhampton LL as well, usually to a King Class for the run to Paddington. From Birkenhead to Chester a mixture of WR and LM Tank engines and from Chester to Wolves, Castles, Counties and Halls.

 

[randyrippley]

No. Doubt if the SR had anyone who signed them; on the ER they were - I think - quite rare on the southern parts (might have had booked work to Norwich in the summer); initially very few on the WR, they were transferred in to replace Class 22s from early 70s. Plenty on the LM and ScR.

There were small numbers of 25s allocated to the Southern before the 33s became available. Used on the Waterloo - Southampton route while the line was being electrified (47s hauled the expresses)
Later in the 1980s 25s worked on occasion at least as far as Salisbury from Exeter - would they have been crewed by SR or WR drivers?

 

[Harbornite]

As well as Chester (already posted) they changed locos at Wolverhampton LL as well, usually to a King Class for the run to Paddington. From Birkenhead to Chester a mixture of WR and LM Tank engines and from Chester to Wolves, Castles, Counties and Halls.

Thanks, although I was talking about the diesel era, which began in 1962 on this route when the entire King class was replaced by Westerns. See the previous posts.

Regarding steam, another service on this route with multiple loco changes was the Cambrian Coast express. These were King hauled as far as Wolverhampton Low Level (then Shrewsbury after the mid 1950s) where manors took over.

 

[Helvellyn]

Very interesting guys. But nobody has stated why under privatization there are 73's going up north, 37's are able to now go everywhere now it seems. So i'm guessing the FOC's are happier to have classes sweeping the nation.

This actually started under BR where with sectorisation locomotives became based at one Depot but could start appearing all over the country.

For example, Railfreight Distribution based all of its Class 37 and 47 locomotives at Tinsley in Sheffield. They didn't have another diesel depot where they based locomotives, but you'd have them working off smaller depots such as Saltley (Birmingham) for chunks of time.

Trainload Coal - Toton was home for a huge chunk of the fleet whether it was North West out-based Class 60s, North East out-based Class 56s or even Scottish out-based Class 56s!

In the late 1980s InterCity went from having the CrossCountry Class 47s based at Bath Road (Bristol), Crewe Diesel or Eastfield (Glasgow) to all being based at Bath Road.


On a separate matter, I've wondered if consideration was ever given to transferring a number of Class 33s up to Scotland in the mid-1980s to operate the West Highland and North of Scotland services when ETH locos were required? I know that Class 37s were refurbished and fitted with ETH to do this, but a Class 33 was essentially a more pwerful ETH fitted Class 26 (Yes I know Type 3 versus Type 2, and there were equipment differences). Might have allowed refurbished 37s to be used elsewhere, and the Class 26s were expected to stay around well into the 1990s at that time. (Class 26s were originally ordered for the Eastern Region before ending up concentrated in Scotland, so the 'McRats' weren't true Scots!)

 

[61653 HTAFC]

This actually started under BR where with sectorisation locomotives became based at one Depot but could start appearing all over the country.

For example, Railfreight Distribution based all of its Class 37 and 47 locomotives at Tinsley in Sheffield. They didn't have another diesel depot where they based locomotives, but you'd have them working off smaller depots such as Saltley (Birmingham) for chunks of time.

Trainload Coal - Toton was home for a huge chunk of the fleet whether it was North West out-based Class 60s, North East out-based Class 56s or even Scottish out-based Class 56s!

In the late 1980s InterCity went from having the CrossCountry Class 47s based at Bath Road (Bristol), Crewe Diesel or Eastfield (Glasgow) to all being based at Bath Road.


On a separate matter, I've wondered if consideration was ever given to transferring a number of Class 33s up to Scotland in the mid-1980s to operate the West Highland and North of Scotland services when ETH locos were required? I know that Class 37s were refurbished and fitted with ETH to do this, but a Class 33 was essentially a more pwerful ETH fitted Class 26 (Yes I know Type 3 versus Type 2, and there were equipment differences). Might have allowed refurbished 37s to be used elsewhere, and the Class 26s were expected to stay around well into the 1990s at that time. (Class 26s were originally ordered for the Eastern Region before ending up concentrated in Scotland, so the 'McRats' weren't true Scots!)

33s finally did make it to Scotland in the late 1990s, when EWS sent a pair to Aberdeen to work the trip freights. This was because unlike the 47s they had dual controls (for those wondering, this meant theycould be driven from the left or right side of the cab) which made shutting easier. They didn't last long though as the traffic was lost. The 2 Cromptons were later sold to DRS and I think they're both now with WCRC, stored at Carnforth.

 

[Phil.]

No. Doubt if the SR had anyone who signed them; on the ER they were - I think - quite rare on the southern parts (might have had booked work to Norwich in the summer); initially very few on the WR, they were transferred in to replace Class 22s from early 70s. Plenty on the LM and ScR.
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The most southerly eastern region depot to sign 25s was March. They also signed 20s from about 1975.


Spot on. Traction training is expensive so specific classes were concentrated in particular areas. Early diesels also had fairly low fuel ranges compared to 66s and the like.

........

 

[66Yorks]

The class 37 was my favourite back in the days. Now it is the legendary class 66........

 

[The Crab]

Not very often if my memory serves me right, given that there were only 50 of them in the first place! I certainly can't remember them working NE - SW as far north as Birmingham so if they worked any of those services they were replaced at Bristol.

.

I had one right through to York.

 

[Taunton]

with the Western installing its own AWS system on the Midland between Birmingham and Bristol, rather than the BR standard system.

I think you will find that while the GWR/WR had been installing their own AWS (called ATC) since about 1910, the Midland and their successors had never got round to installing it on either track or traction 50 years later when the WR took control. As the traction was fitted with either ATC (all the WR allocation) or nothing (visiting LM types), it did make sense to put in a system that could be used.

For diesels, the failure was by central BR in not imposing a standard control system. In the USA, locos from all the different manufacturers and different decades, and from different railways, can all be quite straightforwardly multipled together. What looked a much more centralised system in Britain never got round to this, and not only did manufacturers devise their own incompatible systems, they would then deliberately patent them so nobody else could use it.

 

[70014IronDuke]

No. Doubt if the SR had anyone who signed them; on the ER they were - I think - quite rare on the southern parts (might have had booked work to Norwich in the summer); initially very few on the WR, they were transferred in to replace Class 22s from early 70s. Plenty on the LM and ScR.
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A bunch of 24s were on loan to the south-eastern section from new in 59-61 or so, of course. I think that was because the SR could not get the staff to maintain steam. But that knowledge would have been lost by 65 or so.

Spot on. Traction training is expensive so specific classes were concentrated in particular areas. Early diesels also had fairly low fuel ranges compared to 66s and the like.

It's not just crew training - it's also a cost to train for maintenance and spares control.

 

[DarloRich]

Very interesting guys. But nobody has stated why under privatization there are 73's going up north, 37's are able to now go everywhere now it seems. So i'm guessing the FOC's are happier to have classes sweeping the nation.

I remember under BR class 25's were called "Rats" because they were everywhere. So this loco (I know there were over 300 I think) was maintained everywhere and every region had drivers that could drive them?

37's have always been an ( almost) go anywhere loco, same as a 20. The 73's "up north" are to all intents and purposes a new locomtive.

NR have used thier 73's on some trains in odd places but usually as part of a trip that includes, say, Merseyrail. They didn't, ( until the new ones started) pitch up a long way form the juice rail.

Not very often if my memory serves me right, given that there were only 50 of them in the first place! I certainly can't remember them working NE - SW as far north as Birmingham so if they worked any of those services they were replaced at Bristol.

.

I had one right through to York.

I am told by certain old hands that they pitched up on such services as a way of getting them to Doncaster for overhaul works and then back sooth after attention. I have even seen a picture of one hammering north through Darlington working a Doncaster works test train!

I guess they worked up to York and were un hooked and sent south to works asap.

 

[Cowley]

A bunch of 24s were on loan to the south-eastern section from new in 59-61 or so, of course. I think that was because the SR could not get the staff to maintain steam. But that knowledge would have been lost by 65 or so

I have a feeling, but I could be wrong, that the 24s were used as a stopgap as there wasn't enough ETH stock for the 33s to work with when they were new. 33s didn't have boilers but 24s did. I thought that was also why 33s appeared on a lot of long distance freight work when they were new. Does anyone know if that was right?
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I am told by certain old hands that they pitched up on such services as a way of getting them to Doncaster for overhaul works and then back sooth after attention. I have even seen a picture of one hammering north through Darlington working a Doncaster works test train!

I guess they worked up to York and were un hooked and sent south to works asap.

That definitely happened, they were even known to pilot Deltics occasionally on service trains after works attention.

 

[Taunton]

A bunch of 24s were on loan to the south-eastern section from new in 59-61 or so, of course. I think that was because the SR could not get the staff to maintain steam.

It was also an associated issue that, following the smogs in London of the early/mid-1950s, the elimination of steam in London (and particularly at inner London steam sheds) was seen as urgent. This was why the first diesel depot of all was at Devons Road, Bow (long closed). It also gave emphasis to the Kent Coast and the LTS and further GE electrifications, which had been planned but for which money was now found. Almost all of the first main line diesel locos were used on services to London. The Class 24s took the place of a significant number of steam locos based at Stewarts Lane. Ironically, they were not powerful enough to handle express services on their own, but had steam boilers whereas the Class 33 were ETH only but there was little hauled ETH stock, so a common operation was a coupled pair, one of each, with the Class 24 second to connect the steam heating up.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Regarding steam, another service on this route with multiple loco changes was the Cambrian Coast express. These were King hauled as far as Wolverhampton Low Level (then Shrewsbury after the mid 1950s) where manors took over.

In the last year summer of steam on the CCE, (1966) loco change was at Wolverhampton LL (SO) and Shrewsbury avoided by traversing Abbey Foregate curve. Motive power was usually a 760xx after the Manors had been withdrawn.

 

[chorleyjeff]

Back in the day, we got bored of seeing 50's at Preston, even when they double headed, all the regular traction was dominated by whistler's, rats & duffs so you can imagine the excitement when the holiday / wakes week specials came through, Peaks, double head 20's, 31's and 37's, and named duff's which were not that common around Preston at the time.
To be honest, whilst we took diesel traction for granted back then, it's a welcome sight now, given the blandness of todays modern traction

My memories of steam days in Preston was that although nationalised the railway still ran as though it was still the L&Y and LNWR. Preston freight, shunting and passenger engines were all different to their Lostock Hall equivalents. They were even sub sheds to different sheds ie Lostock Hall under Accrington and Preston under Springs Branch. Perhaps the old ways took from the mid 20th century to the 21st century to finally wither away.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Peaks were certainly not just confined to the MML. Indeed they could be found as far north as Newcastle and as far south as Plymouth. They also worked trans-Pennine services via Leeds and could also be found at random places such as Severn Tunnel Junction.

Also found on North Wales Coast in the early 1980s, together with Class 40s, on Bangor - Scarborough trains. I didn't take too much notice in those days, but I think some trains also ran to Newcastle and Hull with that same motive power.

 

[Taunton]

Peaks were certainly not just confined to the MML. Indeed they could be found .... as far south as Plymouth.

Not at the beginning. They started to take over NE-SW services in about 1960-61, but until about 1970 did not appear west of Bristol, on all such services locos were changed at Bristol to a hydraulic. In fact diesel-electric main line locos just did not appear at all much in the West of England until this time. The odd Class 47 might appear if driven by an Old Oak crew, but certainly most crews at Taunton were not trained on DE locos until the end of the 1960s (it's a very different set of controls). Bristol diesel depot was allocated 10 of the first batch of Peaks but I doubt they got far beyond the Bath Road overbridge in their first years, they all worked to Birmingham and beyond.

The same was true about the North-and-West services to Plymouth via Hereford. Warships took these over in early 1962 and worked throughout from Crewe (I'm sure spotters at Crewe regarded a Warship there as being exotic), but a couple of years later Class 47s took over the Crewe to Bristol sector, but very much came off there to be replaced by a hydraulic. I suspect the absence of GWR-type AWS (ATC) on the locos may have something to do with the Peaks not continuing west.

 

[70014IronDuke]

It was also an associated issue that, following the smogs in London of the early/mid-1950s, the elimination of steam in London (and particularly at inner London steam sheds) was seen as urgent. This was why the first diesel depot of all was at Devons Road, Bow (long closed). It also gave emphasis to the Kent Coast and the LTS and further GE electrifications, which had been planned but for which money was now found. Almost all of the first main line diesel locos were used on services to London. The Class 24s took the place of a significant number of steam locos based at Stewarts Lane. Ironically, they were not powerful enough to handle express services on their own, but had steam boilers whereas the Class 33 were ETH only but there was little hauled ETH stock, so a common operation was a coupled pair, one of each, with the Class 24 second to connect the steam heating up.

I didn't really know that, or if I did, i'd forgotten it. It's interesting how much causes get forgotten, once the solution is found and on its way to bring the solution. I can imagine the haze of smoke from depots like Bricklayers' Arms, Plaistow and (especially) Stratford must have gunged up the atmosphere in their neighbourhoods. Didn't Stratford have an allocation of something like 200 locos? Mind-boggling soot and sulphur emissions! :roll:

 

[Taunton]

I can imagine the haze of smoke from depots like Bricklayers' Arms, Plaistow and (especially) Stratford must have gunged up the atmosphere in their neighbourhoods. Didn't Stratford have an allocation of something like 200 locos? Mind-boggling soot and sulphur emissions!

Keep going ... Stratford had nearly 400 steam locos on allocation in 1950, and Old Oak Common nearly 200, to which you can add another 135 over the canal at Willesden Junction. Sunday evening lighting up must have been intolerable.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Not at the beginning. They started to take over NE-SW services in about 1960-61, but until about 1970 did not appear west of Bristol, on all such services locos were changed at Bristol to a hydraulic. In fact diesel-electric main line locos just did not appear at all much in the West of England until this time. The odd Class 47 might appear if driven by an Old Oak crew, but certainly most crews at Taunton were not trained on DE locos until the end of the 1960s (it's a very different set of controls). Bristol diesel depot was allocated 10 of the first batch of Peaks but I doubt they got far beyond the Bath Road overbridge in their first years, they all worked to Birmingham and beyond.

Many thanks for all of this, really interesting read.

 

[Bevan Price]

It was 1974 when WCML electrification to Glasgow was completed and the "Royal Scot" electric locomotives (87s) were introduced. I think that in 1964, 47s started appearing at Paddington on through trains from Snow Hill, Birkenhead etc because the London Midland region took over Birmingham's ex GWR lines in 1963 and the westerns were moved to the western region's other lines. I don't think the Birkenhead/ Wolverhampton/ Snow Hill services to Paddington changed locos en route? Either way, they had ceased by 1967.

As well as Chester (already posted) they changed locos at Wplverhampton LL as well, usually to a King Class for the run to Paddington. From Birkenhead to Chester a mixture of WR and LM Tank engines and from Chester to Wolves, Castles, Counties and Halls.

After the northern section of the route became part of LMR, some Birkenhead to Paddington services also changed from steam to Class 47 at Shrewsbury, right up to the cessation of these services in March 1967. In the final years, it was usually a Stanier of BR Class 5MT 4-6-0 that worked between Chester & Shrewsbury.

 

[Harbornite]

After the northern section of the route became part of LMR, some Birkenhead to Paddington services also changed from steam to Class 47 at Shrewsbury, right up to the cessation of these services in March 1967. In the final years, it was usually a Stanier of BR Class 5MT 4-6-0 that worked between Chester & Shrewsbury.

I never knew that, cheers.