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Why Were The Class 141s Withdrawn?

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Doomotron

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Why were the 141s withdrawn so early, considering that they were built not long before the 142s?
 
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61653 HTAFC

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Why were the 141s withdrawn so early, considering that they were built not long before the 142s?
Electrification of Leeds and Bradford Forster Square to Skipton and Ilkley released the newer, bigger and more reliable 142s and 144s, which then cascaded to replace the 141s on local West Yorkshire services.

The 141s were shorter and narrower than the later Pacers, had troublesome engines and gearboxes, and were basically worn out. They lasted about as long as all the Pacers should have lasted.
 

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To add a little more, in the mid 90s there was a Regional TV documentary about rural railways in the North, which focused on the Middlesbrough to Whitby line and how poor the service was. The regular formation at the time was a 4-car 142 pairing, and someone from Regional Railways explained that the two units couldn't be split to double the frequency (away from the school trains) as this would need another driver and guard, which there was no budget for. This was also the issue with the suggestion from a local user group, that all those surplus units parked at Doncaster (the 141s) be revived and used to boost rural railways.
 

LMS 4F

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I rode on these back in the day and I seem to recall that the seats were higher than anything else and gave a lively ride. The fact we sold some to Iran rather suggests that they weren't live expired when they stopped use here. Couldn't have helped our relations with that Country either.
 

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I rode on these back in the day and I seem to recall that the seats were higher than anything else and gave a lively ride. The fact we sold some to Iran rather suggests that they weren't live expired when they stopped use here. Couldn't have helped our relations with that Country either.
They weren't completely life expired but needed overhaul, had BR kept them they'd have probably all had the engines and drivetrains replaced with the systems from 142s (just one unit was modified in the end).

The seats were basic bus benches, but the 141s I think had quite high floors (certainly more than heritage units) which was a novel thing in the 1980s.

As I alluded to in my second post, the major thing that prevented them being retained was a lack of funding for new services which they'd be used on. I guess they could have been used to get rid of a few 101s from Manchester either directly or indirectly via a cascade, but with privatisation looming it's understandable that that didn't happen.
 

GoneSouth

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Shouldn’t the question have been ‘why weren’t the class 142s binned at the same time as their close relation, the dark, draughty, slow, uncomfortable 141s?’ :p
 

delt1c

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Shouldn’t the question have been ‘why weren’t the class 142s binned at the same time as their close relation, the dark, draughty, slow, uncomfortable 141s?’ :p
here we go again.
 

bramling

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Shouldn’t the question have been ‘why weren’t the class 142s binned at the same time as their close relation, the dark, draughty, slow, uncomfortable 141s?’ :p

The answer to that will almost certainly be because of the relative size of the two fleets. The 141 fleet was sufficiently small that it could easily disappear when the right combination of circumstances came together.
 

hexagon789

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Why were the 141s withdrawn so early, considering that they were built not long before the 142s?

They started out very unreliable, had modifications made within a few years which only marginally improved matters.

Though eight units went to Iran and two lasted in service there until 2005.
 

GoneSouth

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upload_2019-8-12_20-40-36.jpeg

Not my photo, copied from an old 141 thread. I like the way this has partially retained the WY Metro colour scheme whilst slowly decaying in Iran!

I seem to recall the interior being pretty dark and unwelcoming but then they did replace some pretty grim stuff so were appreciated for a while. At least they knew when they were no longer welcome and fled the country :E
 

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View attachment 67126

Not my photo, copied from an old 141 thread. I like the way this has partially retained the WY Metro colour scheme whilst slowly decaying in Iran!

I seem to recall the interior being pretty dark and unwelcoming but then they did replace some pretty grim stuff so were appreciated for a while. At least they knew when they were no longer welcome and fled the country :E
I saw a travel blog years ago where an intrepid Brit had managed to get to Tehran to ride them. They apparently still had BR notices all over the place, and WY route maps still on the glass partitions. The DMS car was the men's coach with the DMSL being for ladies.
 

GoneSouth

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I saw a travel blog years ago where an intrepid Brit had managed to get to Tehran to ride them. They apparently still had BR notices all over the place, and WY route maps still on the glass partitions. The DMS car was the men's coach with the DMSL being for ladies.
I think the WY route map has changed a bit since then, he should revisit to update it with Kirkstall Forge, Apperley Bridge and I’m sure there are a few more! :lol:

The Sun has done some serious damage to that paintwork so those maps stuck on the wall must have been good quality to survive that long.
 

61653 HTAFC

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I think the WY route map has changed a bit since then, he should revisit to update it with Kirkstall Forge, Apperley Bridge and I’m sure there are a few more! :lol:

The Sun has done some serious damage to that paintwork so those maps stuck on the wall must have been good quality to survive that long.
I think they'd been there a while when that photo was taken, it probably wasn't quite as faded when they were still in use!
 

hexagon789

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Quite! Maybe the ladies only section didn't include the loo and the two single seats opposite? String up some bead curtains and Robert is your mother's brother!

Perhaps it was removed/locked out - they were used on suburban duties I believe so possibly didn't need the toilet.
 

hexagon789

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There's a couple of photos of the units on Iran on the train testing website. They seem to have lost the autonatic couplers in favour of buffers and hook/chain couplings and gained twin headlamps on the front:

130-2005_10_09-Teheran.jpg
 

61653 HTAFC

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Perhaps it was removed/locked out - they were used on suburban duties I believe so possibly didn't need the toilet.
Probably. I wish I could find that blog, it's probably lost to history though.

There's a couple of photos of the units on Iran on the train testing website. They seem to have lost the autonatic couplers in favour of buffers and hook/chain couplings and gained twin headlamps on the front:

View attachment 67237
And of course wing-mirrors making them look even more like their Leyland National ancestors!
 

GoneSouth

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There's a couple of photos of the units on Iran on the train testing website. They seem to have lost the autonatic couplers in favour of buffers and hook/chain couplings and gained twin headlamps on the front:

View attachment 67237
Love the wing mirrors, could easily imagine this pulling up at a bus stop c. 1990 :E

That dark red & cream livery was very nice, remember seeing it a few times on a brand new 158 which looked fantastic
 

Journeyman

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I saw a travel blog years ago where an intrepid Brit had managed to get to Tehran to ride them. They apparently still had BR notices all over the place, and WY route maps still on the glass partitions. The DMS car was the men's coach with the DMSL being for ladies.

Sounds similar to the secondhand Berlin U-Bahn trains that operate on the Pyongyang Metro. The North Korean government swears blind the trains were built in North Korea, but there's plenty of reminders of their previous life to be seen, including a lot of etched graffiti on the glass.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Sounds similar to the secondhand Berlin U-Bahn trains that operate on the Pyongyang Metro. The North Korean government swears blind the trains were built in North Korea, but there's plenty of reminders of their previous life to be seen, including a lot of etched graffiti on the glass.
I'm not sure the Iranian regime would want to claim responsibility for the 141s though!
 

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141's were rare to me first one I ever saw was at man Vic in the late 80s I think it was in green n cream think it was the old wypte colours
 
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