Wigan - Preston Upgrade?

[furnessvale]

Silly question but could it also be linked into a resurrection of the wiring up to Windermere?
Or is the junction the wrong way round?

Junction is a triangle.

 

[Elecman]

Afaik the Hest Bank Junctions go North and South onto the WCML

 

[92002]

Agreed, particularly as the Grangemouth branch is getting wired. That can then allow the Daventry-Grangemouth (and perhaps the Dalston-Grangemouth) freight traffic to go over to electric haulage for most/all of the route.
Granted, Grangemouth would probably need a shunter on site for moving containers/tanks around, but that shouldn't be too hard to surmount as obstacles go.

(Re the Dalston tanks, I do realise Colas Rail Freight don't have any electric locos in their fleet, and I also realise that the Carlisle-Dalston section of the tank traffic is unelectrified, but the tanks are all marshalled together/split up in Carlisle New Yard, which is electrified, so if they were to hire locos in from, say, DBC, that problem could be solved)

The OHL goes live from Cumbernauld to Polmont in the next week. That probably includes the Grangemouth branch. So freights to Grangemouth can go over to electric then.

 

[The_Engineer]

The OHL goes live from Cumbernauld to Polmont in the next week. That probably includes the Grangemouth branch. So freights to Grangemouth can go over to electric then.

...... I think you got the wrong thread for your post?

 

[59CosG95]

The OHL goes live from Cumbernauld to Polmont in the next week. That probably includes the Grangemouth branch. So freights to Grangemouth can go over to electric then.

Ah, thanks very much for the clarification. I did know that it does in fact go live on Tuesday 1st of May, but I wasn't sure if the full Grangemouth branch (as opposed to all bu the freight terminals) was due to get wired.
There'll probably be a bit of time before electric freight does appear, due to the reason stated earlier in this thread that there isn't enough spare juice on the WCML north of Carlisle to take the new electric traffic!

 

[92002]

The thought did cross my mind, but this is a reply to #27 on the thread.

 

[The Planner]

People need to stop getting excited, nothing is being upgraded in the short term up there. Anything for post HS2 is just talk currently, nothing firm

A Preston driver was telling a few of us about some forthcoming upgrade work which will result in the WCML anglo Scot traffic going via Bolton/Manchester at some point. Don't know any more sorry so nothing extra to elaborate on.

That is probably Acton Grange as that is getting completely renewed. Big old block that will be.

 

[randyrippley]

Silly question but could it also be linked into a resurrection of the wiring up to Windermere?
Or is the junction the wrong way round?

Morecambe branch has connections both north and south. You could run Windermere-Morecambe-reverse-Lancaster, though to make best use you'd have to revert to proper signalling on the line as at the moment the two tracks act as long independent sidings

 

[Mathew S]

People need to stop getting excited, nothing is being upgraded in the short term up there.

Thank you, that's what I wanted to know.

That is probably Acton Grange as that is getting completely renewed. Big old block that will be.

@The Planner are you able to share when/how long this is planned for by any chance?
Thanks for the info already.

 

[driver_m]

People need to stop getting excited, nothing is being upgraded in the short term up there. Anything for post HS2 is just talk currently, nothing firm



That is probably Acton Grange as that is getting completely renewed. Big old block that will be.

Cheers for that. Makes sense. Are NR getting rid of Winsford box sometime soon or has it got a while yet?

 

[The Planner]

are you able to share when/how long this is planned for by any chance?

It is still being planned I think, but it will be on the scale of the big block that was used south of Wigan a while back for Ince Moss and Bamfurlong as it is a lot of S&C to replace.

 

[The Planner]

Cheers for that. Makes sense. Are NR getting rid of Winsford box sometime soon or has it got a while yet?

Nothing that Ive heard. Macclesfield is likely to be next then its Crewe.

 

[Mathew S]

It is still being planned I think, but it will be on the scale of the big block that was used south of Wigan a while back for Ince Moss and Bamfurlong as it is a lot of S&C to replace.

Thanks for the info. Are we talking weeks, months?

That's going to be a real pain in the backside for me travelling south from Wigan, but hopefully worth it in the long-run.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It is still being planned I think, but it will be on the scale of the big block that was used south of Wigan a while back for Ince Moss and Bamfurlong as it is a lot of S&C to replace.

Isn't Acton Grange of much the same age as everything else north of Crewe, ie last upgraded for the 1974 electrification and now nearing 50 years old?
I know NR has to plan to replace Warrington, Preston and Carlisle PSBs, and they have to start somewhere, but why would Acton Grange be prioritised?
It always strikes me as one of the better WCML junctions, with 50mph crossovers to/from Chester.
It carried a sizeable WCML freight load via Walton Old Jn and Arpley, but that has diminished significantly since the coal traffic fell over a cliff.
I can see HS2 influencing upgrade priorities, but we are not there yet.
Just at the moment, Preston strikes me as the location needing a lot of work, particularly on the southern approaches.

As a regular Chester-Manchester passenger, there have been countless weekend blocks for engineering work through Warrington in recent years.
It's often difficult to know what is being upgraded, and nothing much seems to have changed on the ground, but the prospect of yet more blocks is not appealing!

 

[edwin_m]

I'm assuming the switches and crossings or the formation is worn out at Acton Grange, and this is essentially a like-for-like replacement as with the junctions further north. I get the impression the equipment at Warrington and Carlisle is in better condition than at some of the other powerboxes and the policy is life-extension rather than replacement.

 

[The Planner]

I'm assuming the switches and crossings or the formation is worn out at Acton Grange, and this is essentially a like-for-like replacement as with the junctions further north. I get the impression the equipment at Warrington and Carlisle is in better condition than at some of the other powerboxes and the policy is life-extension rather than replacement.

This. Pure and simple is that Acton Grange is knackered and needs doing, you can only do life extension works for so long. It has been put on the back burner for a while as options were to rationalise etc but these were never agreed upon.

 

[driver_m]

Leaving Warrington PSB makes sense too. Seems like a lot of it has been incrementally replaced over the years, such as the signalling, and certain locations like Dallam being renewed when the Mail Terminal was built and the extra line from St Helens at Springs Branch. Some of the signals on the Chat Moss look like they could do with stabilising as they make the tower of Pisa look level. But theres obviously more pressing priorities, Crewe, even with HS2 is still a major pain in the neck. The reason I asked about winsford is that it seems to have took a big dive in reliability recently with the signalling outages.

 

[The Planner]

Winsford will probably be CP7. Beeston and Steelworks are still on the list to do as they were meant to go a few years ago and havent and probably won't!

 

[driver_m]

Winsford will probably be CP7. Beeston and Steelworks are still on the list to do as they were meant to go a few years ago and havent and probably won't!

Good! The amount of times I've had to sit those section signals. Surprised that you've never put IB's in there just to halve the time in section like elsewhere on the line.

 

[jhy44]

Whilst they're at it, can they build a new combined single Wigan station with proper facilities?
The existing ones are so close to being one station it's painful.

 

[Springs Branch]

On this Wigan - Preston upgrade topic, has anything been raised about the outlook for Euxton Junction after electrification to Bolton & Manchester is complete?

With more trains coming from the Chorley line in future, will Euxton Junction become a serious bottleneck on the northern WCML?

Has there been any mention of a flyover arrangement at Euxton at some point in the future - like Hitchin or Norton Bridge (though presumably a less elaborate solution than Norton Bridge)?

 

[The Planner]

In a word, no. Euxton will get renewed as it is at some point.

 

[PR1Berske]

Whilst they're at it, can they build a new combined single Wigan station with proper facilities?
The existing ones are so close to being one station it's painful.

Much requested, often discussed, always considered, never going to happen in a million years.

 

[Mathew S]

Much requested, often discussed, always considered, never going to happen in a million years.

Also worth saying that the people of Wigan had the opportunity to vote for a funding package in 2007/8 (I think) which would have seen the two stations turned into a combined transport hub. Same people who complain are, I imagine, the same people who voted against the plan, and so are only now, 10 years later, beginning to see some of the improvements which coupd have started 10 years ago.

 

[PR1Berske]

Also worth saying that the people of Wigan had the opportunity to vote for a funding package in 2007/8 (I think) which would have seen the two stations turned into a combined transport hub. Same people who complain are, I imagine, the same people who voted against the plan, and so are only now, 10 years later, beginning to see some of the improvements which coupd have started 10 years ago.

True, though that vote has been called a missed opportunity over the years for perhaps more projects than it was ever intended

 

[Mollman]

Two points:
1. This bank holiday weekend the line between Warrington BQ and Crewe is shut. Scotland - Brum - Euston services are diverted via Chester whilst Liverpool services are going via Manchester.
2. The dive-under at Standish Jnc still remains - not sure how practical it would be to use as a grade separated Up Slow to Up Main link if 4 tracks were reinstated.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Also worth saying that the people of Wigan had the opportunity to vote for a funding package in 2007/8 (I think) which would have seen the two stations turned into a combined transport hub. Same people who complain are, I imagine, the same people who voted against the plan, and so are only now, 10 years later, beginning to see some of the improvements which coupd have started 10 years ago.

Not so much the people of Wigan as the people of Greater Manchester. The referendum was about approving the proposed Greater Manchester Congestion Charge scheme which would have operated inside the M60 ring and was intended to be part of the funding mechanism in GMCA's application for central government funds from the Transport Innovation Fund. Spending would have been on all modes of transport with better integration between buses and trains being just one part of the plan. The referendum came out massively against the proposal by nearly 4 to 1 and as such ended up killing off the whole TIF mechanism nationally. However the AGMA did find ways of finding funding for some of the schemes, most notably the "big bang" expansion of Metrolink. I believe the recently opened Bolton Interchange was another such scheme.

As for a combined Wigan station there is no guarantee that it would have gone ahead anyway. The only way to make a combined station would be to provide some kind of link between the two lines to the south of Wallgate road bridge. Unfortunately the gradient of the Wallgate lines on that particular stretch would be unacceptable for new platforms under Railway Group Standards. As such there would be little point in trying to provide even a pedestrian route under the road so we are left with the status quo. In the meantime Virgin built a new multi-storey car park on the very piece of land between the two lines where any linkage would be built though the car park was designed and built so that it could be dismantled relatively easily if necessary at some point in the future. There was also a suggestion that the town's bus station could be relocated to this site but it it is now being rebuilt on its existing site a few minutes walk away from the stations (and adjacent to the main shopping area and market).

 

[WatcherZero]

Move the WCML turnout further back towards Hindley and put in a lower road bridge extending the drop in the road, renew Wallgate bridge (already had to be shorn up with temporary supports due to cracking) as a beam or box girder rather than a brick arch and hey presto you got your clearance.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Move the WCML turnout further back towards Hindley and put in a lower road bridge extending the drop in the road, renew Wallgate bridge (already had to be shorn up with temporary supports due to cracking) as a beam or box girder rather than a brick arch and hey presto you got your clearance.

Once you start looking at a genuine "Union" station you can make that idea easier by abolishing North Western's existing Platforms 1,2 & 3 with replacement bays in the lower level facility. The WCML Up Passenger Loop would be skewed to the north-east allowing the existing Wigan Station Jn to be replaced a decent distance further away from the stations to allow for the gradients required. Platform 1 is almost never used as a WCML loop so would not actually be missed operationally.

 

[WatcherZero]

With the HS2 services only a third of which will be stopping along with other services/freight it would make sense to create a pair of central throughroads as I agree platform 1 is rarely (though not completely) unused, bays are a little more of an issue with two electric services an hour to be using them soon, you could as you suggest move them down to Wallgate though that would require electrifying there as well and the Wallgate platforms would have to be lengthened as well as longer turnbacks (possibly by cannabalising the Wallgate Sidings), would probably add considerably to the cost. A simpler and cheaper plan might be to double a section north of the station, remove platforms 4 and 5 and have services stop at 6 and 1 with the existing 6 bay moved over to rebuilt platforms 7 and 8.