Wigan to Bolton electrification: possible changes to services

[daodao]

The government has just announced electrification of the line between Wigan North Western and Lostock Junction, to be completed in 2024/5, but has not provided any indication of what alterations to train services are planned in the light of this extension of the electrified network. I have created this thread to permit discussion of possible changes.

In my opinion, the benefits of this electrification scheme would be to facilitate:

• regular interval (e.g. every 30 minute) electric stopping services from Wigan North Western to Manchester via Bolton, calling at all stations, and extended beyond to other electrified parts of the network, either via the Castlefield line or to Stalybridge (if/when the Manchester-Stalybridge line is electrified).
• acceleration of Manchester to Southport services, which could run non-stop from Wigan Wallgate to Salford Crescent via the Atherton line, or just call at Bolton between these points.
• avoidance of any need for Manchester to Blackburn/Clitheroe diesel services to call at local stations between Bolton and Salford Crescent

 

[YorkshireBear]

Wigan North Western to South Manchester or Stalybridge services seems a dead cert to me now. That or some battery type trains to go into wallgate, but think the former is more likely. I hope at some point they improve the interchange between the Wigan stations.


Maybe the 769s to Southport can changeover at ince or hindley therefore not causing as many delays when they fail!

 

[yorksrob]

The best thing that anyone could do for interchange between the two Wigan stations, would be for Galloways to reopen their pie shop opposite Wallgate.

 

[Ken H]

Wigan North Western to South Manchester or Stalybridge services seems a dead cert to me now. That or some battery type trains to go into wallgate, but think the former is more likely. I hope at some point they improve the interchange between the Wigan stations.


Maybe the 769s to Southport can changeover at ince or hindley therefore not causing as many delays when they fail!

Don't get too excited by Stalybridge electrification. The current project website only talks of piling and clearances. nothing about putting the wires up. Check out the transpennine electrification thread.

 

[Neptune]

I hope at some point they improve the interchange between the Wigan stations.

How can you improve it? They’re literally over the road from each other.

 

[YorkshireBear]

How can you improve it? They’re literally over the road from each other.

I know several people who don't like it. So I mean from a cosmetic, wayfinding and advertising point.

dont get too excited by Stalybridge electrification. the current project website only talks of piling and clearances. nothing about putting the wires up. check out the transpennine electrification thread.

I know I know. But I still work on the positive assumptions that piles mean masts can't be too far behind in this case. It's not like Didcot oxford where it was canned part way through this has restarted a long time post pause.

 

[scragend]

The best thing that anyone could do for interchange between the two Wigan stations, would be for Galloways to reopen their pie shop opposite Wallgate.

Galloways should be mandatory. Everywhere.

 

[HST43257]

So I read that provision would be made with extended platforms for 6 car unit formations. I'm starting to wonder whether they'll run an all stopper 2tph 2x331 service from Vic to Wigan NW via Bolton, with Southports and Kirkbys running via Atherton, so a 3tph service, or 4tph if you keep the Leeds to Wigan via Calder Valley and Atherton.

 

[Ianno87]

How can you improve it? They’re literally over the road from each other.

The best improvement would be pedestrianising (or making "shared space") the road, so you can walk directly from one to the other. Currently, the road crossing is awkwardly placed off the "desire line".

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Seems odd doesn’t it. Someone has to lose out here.

To make this worthwhile, it’s a half-hourly service from North Western via Bolton and Piccadilly to Airport, Alderley or Hazel Grove using 6/323 or 6/331. The obvious mention of 6 car is the bit I read into most, as they must be planning to smack in some 6 car peak stuff for Bolton.

That means diesel stuff via Walkden, so that’s a half-hourly Southport. That’s not going to be 769s as they can barely use any electric then going into Victoria.

An additional peak path, probably from North Western, via Walkden to Oxford Road every hour would be no major change and may be a rerouted Southport to make it ‘fast’, therefore a peak stopper starting from North Western via Walkden to balance.

So that leaves Kirkby as a shuttle...

 

[Ianno87]

Seems odd doesn’t it. Someone has to lose out here.

To make this worthwhile, it’s a half-hourly service from North Western via Bolton and Piccadilly to Airport, Alderley or Hazel Grove using 6/323 or 6/331. The obvious mention of 6 car is the bit I read into most, as they must be planning to smack in some 6 car peak stuff for Bolton.

That means diesel stuff via Walkden, so that’s a half-hourly Southport. That’s not going to be 769s as they can barely use any electric then going into Victoria.

An additional peak path, probably from North Western, via Walkden to Oxford Road every hour would be no major change and may be a rerouted Southport to make it ‘fast’, therefore a peak stopper starting from North Western via Walkden to balance.

So that leaves Kirkby as a shuttle...

Also specifically mentions access to/from Springs Branch as one of the benefits of this, and getting direct access to the Bolton corridor from here.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There are certain people who always seem to have the Atherton line to the Wigan area as a prime target for conversion to the Manchester Metrolink light rail system, but the referred-to of the electrification of that part of that route from Crow Nest Junction onwards to the Wigan area will certainly cause them to have second thoughts. I know that Hindley was once a four platform station, but from Crow Nest Junction to Wigan, based on the current railway land usage, will there be problems encountered in running heavy rail and light rail services on parallel running lines? A similar matter concerning re-quadding the line from Ashburys to Guide Bridge has been a comparitive discussion matter in the past,

 

[S&CLER]

How can you improve it? They’re literally over the road from each other.

Decent same-platform connections at Hindley would remove the need to change stations at Wigan. Will Southport lose through trains to Bolton?

In reply to Xenophon, there seems to be room at Crow Nest for 2 Metrolink tracks, perhaps given a sluing of the heavy rail tracks.
From a purely selfish point of view, I would prefer revival of through Southport-Leeds trains, which at present are all terminating at Wigan NW, largely because they are for the time being strengthened with 153s, which are banned from Wallgate because of clearance issues. But the 153s have only a limited authorisation for use, expiring in December if I'm not mistaken. See the article on Northern's fleet in the latest Today's Railways.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So that leaves Kirkby as a shuttle...

Or rather more likely as Merseyrail using battery 777s.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Or rather more likely as Merseyrail using battery 777s.

However it must be assumed that the timeline is such that there will be a shuttle using heavy rail sooner. It may make the Kirkby road far more reliable, in so much as it would be one unit, one hour.

 

[30907]

The government has just announced electrification of the line between Wigan North Western and Lostock Junction, to be completed in 2024/5, but has not provided any indication of what alterations to train services are planned in the light of this extension of the electrified network. I have created this thread to permit discussion of possible changes.

In my opinion, the benefits of this electrification scheme would be to facilitate:

• regular interval (e.g. every 30 minute) electric stopping services from Wigan to Manchester via Bolton, calling at all stations, and extended beyond to other electrified parts of the network, either via the Castlefield line or to Stalybridge (if/when the Manchester-Stalybridge line is electrified).

Agree. I would have thought 1tph Southport via Bolton. Preferably NOT via Castlefield.

• acceleration of Manchester to Southport services, which could run non-stop from Wigan Wallgate to Salford Crescent via the Atherton line, or just call at Bolton between these points.

Agree.

• avoidance of any need for Manchester to Blackburn/Clitheroe diesel services to call at local stations between Bolton and Salford Crescent

Agree, but hardly any did pre Covid.

 

[jonnyfan]

The most sensible service pattern in my opinion would be 2tph Wigan North Western to Stalybridge via Bolton calling at all stations. (That is of course if the electrification to Stalybridge is completed, which seems to be progressing along out of any headlines).
The Southport services can run via Atherton, with one still heading via Castlefield.

 

[Halish Railway]

As for rolling stock, would the spare 9 323s not taken on by Northern to replace the 319s come into any use? Or is 2024/2025 too far away for this to happen, with more 331s being ordered instead.

 

[507020]

Good news.

Of course, the best thing would be to cut the Alderley Edge service back to Wigan North Western, to make it purely EMU.

Send the Southports via Atherton, you'll upset some retired MP up there or something but it'll be the best option.

Upsetting Mr Pugh isn't the best option. Note that when the Atherton line was closed for engineering works not that long ago, Kirkby - Victoria and Wigan - Leeds services were diverted to run via Bolton, but all services omitted Westhoughton due to signalling constraints. EMU acceleration may be able to increase capacity through Westhoughton.

I expect 1tph Blackpool North - Hazel Grove as well as 1tph Blackpool North - Manchester Airport to be run by 6 car 331s, the long awaited electric services 1tph Wigan North Western - Stalybridge and 1tph Wigan North Western - Alderley Edge can be run by 6 car 323s from the West Midlands. I believe it is only the section through Chorley where running 323s is undesirable. These can absorb the stops at Ince, Hindley, Westhoughton, Moses Gate, Farnworth, Kearsley and Clifton, which it was unreasonable to expect Southport or Clitheroe services to call at in the first place.

Southport can then have a better semi fast journey time to Manchester, perhaps sub 1 hour if using the 100mph capability of 769s, with 2tph calling at Meols Cop, Burscough Bridge, Parbold, Appley Bridge, Gathurst, Wigan Wallgate, Bolton and Salford Crescent and then 1tph to Salford Central, Victoria, Ashton-under-Lyne and Stalybridge and 1tph to Deansgate, Oxford Road, Piccadilly, [insert Styal line stations here] and Manchester Airport. It is probably best for Southport services to run through to Stalybridge and Manchester Airport.

You also have a Clitheroe - Rochdale and a TPE running via Bolton. As for the Atherton line, Kirkby - Blackburn can be retained and some more 3 car 158s should be formed to run Wigan Wallgate - Leeds. If you were going to run Southport - Leeds again, it would mean either the journey time becoming unacceptable running via Atherton, or running 158s under the wires via Bolton. The Southport - Manchester Airport service is more established and desired than Leeds, although I’m unaware what stations it should serve between Piccadilly and the Airport, the Leeds service is useless if it doesn’t serve Halifax or Bradford Interchange. We may well see a Skelmersdale - Wigan Wallgate battery shuttle using 777s yet.

 

[Philip]

Will this likely mean diverted Avanti services will stop using the Chat Moss/Parkside Junction line to access the WCML and instead run via Westhoughton to reach Wigan?

Any mention of line speed upgrade on the Westhoughton line?

 

[Watershed]

Will this likely mean diverted Avanti services will stop using the Chat Moss/Parkside Junction line to access the WCML and instead run via Westhoughton to reach Wigan?

Any mention of line speed upgrade on the Westhoughton line?

Seems unlikely - signing via Parkside (as well as via Bolton) enables them to divert when the WCML is shut through Warrington, which seems to happen about once a year.

Both of those routes are 3/4 minute headway so fitting in a diverted service is usually easy enough. Whereas diverting via Westhoughton takes longer and uses a route with higher headways.

"If it ain't broke - don't fix it"...

 

[Greybeard33]

By 2023-4 it seems likely that the Manchester Recovery Task Force timetable recast will have been implemented. Under Option B+ the services on the Westhoughton line will be Southport - Stalybridge and Southport - Oxford Road, presumably both worked by 769s. The Atherton line will have Wigan - Leeds via Brighouse and Kirkby - Blackburn via Todmorden.

Post electrification, the simplest rearrangement, to allow use of 6-car EMUs, would be for the Stalybridge and Oxford Road services to terminate at Wigan NW. Southport would then get back the Leeds and Blackburn via Atherton services, as during 2018-19. Kirkby would have to make do with a shuttle to Wallgate.

This would, of course, be anathema to the Southport commuters who fought for restoration of their direct services to the Castlefield corridor. Perhaps they could be appeased by rerouting the Southport - Oxford Road service via Atherton, with 2tph Wigan NW - Stalybridge EMUs. But that would mean stepping up to 3tph on the Atherton line, unless the Leeds or Blackburn service was cut back to Victoria. Any of these variations potentially increase conflicts at Victoria (crossing moves between the Rochdale/Salford and Stalybridge lines).

In any event the 769s would become redundant - good riddance!

 

[daodao]

By 2023-4 it seems likely that the Manchester Recovery Task Force timetable recast will have been implemented. Under Option B+ the services on the Westhoughton line will be Southport - Stalybridge and Southport - Oxford Road, presumably both worked by 769s. The Atherton line will have Wigan - Leeds via Brighouse and Kirkby - Blackburn via Todmorden.

Post electrification, the simplest rearrangement, to allow use of 6-car EMUs, would be for the Stalybridge and Oxford Road services to terminate at Wigan NW. Southport would then get back the Leeds and Blackburn via Atherton services, as during 2018-19. Kirkby would have to make do with a shuttle to Wallgate.

This would, of course, be anathema to the Southport commuters who fought for restoration of their direct services to the Castlefield corridor. Perhaps they could be appeased by rerouting the Southport - Oxford Road service via Atherton, with 2tph Wigan NW - Stalybridge EMUs. But that would mean stepping up to 3tph on the Atherton line, unless the Leeds or Blackburn service was cut back to Victoria. Any of these variations potentially increase conflicts at Victoria (crossing moves between the Rochdale/Salford and Stalybridge lines).

In any event the 769s would become redundant - good riddance!

The above assumes that the overall number of trains from Wigan to Manchester via Salford Crescent would be 4 tph. A more generous provision of 6 tph would permit:

• a regular interval (e.g. every 30 minute) electric stopping service from Wigan North Western to Manchester via Bolton, calling at all stations, and extended to other electrified parts of the network via the Castlefield line.
• acceleration of Southport to Manchester services (diesel, 2 tph), which could run non-stop from Wigan Wallgate to Salford Crescent via the Atherton line, and then to Victoria.
• a separate regular interval (e.g. every 30 minute) diesel all stations stopping service from Wigan Wallgate to Manchester Victoria via Atherton, with alternate trains originating from Kirkby.

The diesel services running via the Atherton line, along with the 2 tph Blackburn/Clitheroe to Manchester Victoria services, would use platforms 5 and 6 at Victoria and extend to Rochdale and beyond. This reduces crossing moves at Victoria. Wigan would still have a 2 tph link to the Castlefield line.

 

[Ianno87]

The above assumes that the overall number of trains from Wigan to Manchester via Salford Crescent would be 4 tph. A more generous provision of 6 tph would permit:

• a regular interval (e.g. every 30 minute) electric stopping service from Wigan North Western to Manchester via Bolton, calling at all stations, and extended to other electrified parts of the network via the Castlefield line.
• acceleration of Southport to Manchester services (diesel, 2 tph), which could run non-stop from Wigan Wallgate to Salford Crescent via the Atherton line, and then to Victoria.
• a separate regular interval (e.g. every 30 minute) diesel all stations stopping service from Wigan Wallgate to Manchester Victoria via Atherton, with alternate trains originating from Kirkby.

The diesel services running via the Atherton line, along with the 2 tph Blackburn/Clitheroe to Manchester Victoria services, would use platforms 5 and 6 at Victoria and extend to Rochdale and beyond. This reduces crossing moves at Victoria. Wigan would still have a 2 tph link to the Castlefield line.

But that would require more capacity in Central Manchester than the Task Force work deems available. Until there is more Central Manchester capacity, the number of trains in Option B+ is what there is to work with.

 

[daodao]

But that would require more capacity in Central Manchester than the Task Force work deems available. Until there is more Central Manchester capacity, the number of trains in Option B+ is what there is to work with.

I did not consider 6 tph (4 from Wigan Wallgate/beyond, 2 from Blackburn/Clitheroe) via Victoria platforms 5/6 (and all extending to Rochdale/beyond) excessive, with just 2 tph of the Wigan services running via the Castlefield line.

The intention of this electrification scheme is presumably to run 2 tph using electric trains from Wigan NW via Bolton to Manchester and then onto further destinations, which is at present only possible by running these services onto the Castlefield line.

If there are deemed to be capacity limitations in Manchester, the alternative option with just 4 tph from Wigan would be to:

• combine the 2 tph Wigan Wallgate-Victoria all station stopping service with the 2 tph Southport-Manchester trains (resulting in poor Southport-Manchester journey times)
• run the Kirkby-Wigan Wallgate service as an hourly shuttle.
• run 2 tph electric Wigan NW-Bolton-Manchester services. If there is not enough capacity to run all these services via the Castlefield line, they should all run to Manchester Victoria (and possibly to Stalybridge, if/when the Victoria-Stalybridge line is electrified).

No diesel services from Southport/Wigan Wallgate should be running onto the Castlefield line. Splitting half hourly services to serve 2 separate Manchester stations is extremely customer unfriendly, and should not be done.

 

[Greybeard33]

• run 2 tph electric Wigan NW-Bolton-Manchester services. If there is not enough capacity to run all these services via the Castlefield line, they should all run to Manchester Victoria (and possibly to Stalybridge, if/when the Victoria-Stalybridge line is electrified).

Since piling work for OLE structures is already in progress between Victoria and Stalybridge, it is a reasonable assumption that electrification of that line will be completed by 2023-4 at the latest. I am sure that the business case for Wigan - Bolton will rely on EMUs being able to run through from Wigan to Stalybridge (and potentially on to Huddersfield, as and when TRU electrification is completed).

 

[Kite159]

The above assumes that the overall number of trains from Wigan to Manchester via Salford Crescent would be 4 tph. A more generous provision of 6 tph would permit:

• a regular interval (e.g. every 30 minute) electric stopping service from Wigan North Western to Manchester via Bolton, calling at all stations, and extended to other electrified parts of the network via the Castlefield line.
• acceleration of Southport to Manchester services (diesel, 2 tph), which could run non-stop from Wigan Wallgate to Salford Crescent via the Atherton line, and then to Victoria.
• a separate regular interval (e.g. every 30 minute) diesel all stations stopping service from Wigan Wallgate to Manchester Victoria via Atherton, with alternate trains originating from Kirkby.

The diesel services running via the Atherton line, along with the 2 tph Blackburn/Clitheroe to Manchester Victoria services, would use platforms 5 and 6 at Victoria and extend to Rochdale and beyond. This reduces crossing moves at Victoria. Wigan would still have a 2 tph link to the Castlefield line.

I would have the Southport services calling at Hindley, solely to allow for a same platform change to the EMUs from Wigan North Western.

 

[Starmill]

I don't think that an acceleration of Southport services is realistic. The Atherton line has already had its service cut from 3tph to 2tph. Unless you were to run non-stop, or call only at Atherton, thus leaving other stations with just 1tph. I can't see the third tph coming back, mainly because it'd require more crew diagrams at significant cost.

On the other hand there's not really a suggestion that these infrastructure changes are to speed up Southport services.

 

[Fedupnorthern]

Preston, Leyland, Euxton, new stations at Coppull, Standish, Wigan NW and onward.

 

[Purple Orange]

But that would require more capacity in Central Manchester than the Task Force work deems available. Until there is more Central Manchester capacity, the number of trains in Option B+ is what there is to work with.

Option B+ separates the Alderley Edge to Southport services, so if 323s are to run in 6-car formation on this line, it can only be between Wigan & Stalybridge. There seems to be a Southport to Oxford are service, but that’ll be determined by whatever can fit in P5.