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Will Crossrail 2 never happen now?

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Bald Rick

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That's kind of not mutually exclusive . TfL are broke because of a rapid fall off in demand. Crossrail 2 would not be needed due to a rapid fall off in demand.

Tfl are broke because of a fall off in demand, AND because Crossrail is over budget.
 
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Taunton

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TfL are broke because of a fall off in demand, AND because Crossrail is over budget.
They would have had a lot more support in the current situation from central government if they hadn't conducted themselves in such a spendthrift and politically-partisan manner, and led to Crossrail becoming a national laughing stock. It remains to be seen if Andy Byford can get to grips with any of this. So far, for someone named as "Communicator of the Year" a few years ago, we haven't heard a lot from him.
 
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matt_world2004

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They would have had a lot more support in the current situation from central government if they hadn't conducted themselves in such a spendthrift and politically-partisan manner, and led to Crossrail becoming a national laughing stock. It remains to be seen if Andy Byford can get to grips with any of this. So far, for someone named as "Communicator of the Year" a few years ago, we haven't heard a lot from him.
The DfT had an equal amount of control of Crossrail limited until TfL took it over last week
 

Tio Terry

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The DfT had an equal amount of control of Crossrail limited until TfL took it over last week

Not really. They didn't want too much to do with it and did their best to keep it at arms length, especially the central section. Their view was that their job - as it was a TfL project, not a DfT one - was to make sure that the infrastructure met all the international and national rules and standards so that it would be compatible with the rest of the national network. Other than that they left it to Crossrail Ltd.
 

crablab

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They would have had a lot more support in the current situation from central government if they hadn't conducted themselves in such a spendthrift and politically-partisan manner,
You mean the manner that led to them projecting an operating profit this year (until Covid), after central government removed all public subsidy so it is now the only (I think?) metro system in the world to run entirely on farebox income?
 

JamesT

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deltic

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Not really. They didn't want too much to do with it and did their best to keep it at arms length, especially the central section. Their view was that their job - as it was a TfL project, not a DfT one - was to make sure that the infrastructure met all the international and national rules and standards so that it would be compatible with the rest of the national network. Other than that they left it to Crossrail Ltd.
Isnt that one of the problems - you cant delegate your responsibility - if you are providing a substantial amount of the funding you are responsible for checking how it is being spent and hence being on top of the project. Something nobody seemed to be.

Crossrail 2 is dead - not being an oven ready project it has little going for it.
 

edwin_m

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They would have had a lot more support in the current situation from central government if they hadn't conducted themselves in such a spendthrift and politically-partisan manner, and led to Crossrail becoming a national laughing stock. It remains to be seen if Andy Byford can get to grips with any of this. So far, for someone named as "Communicator of the Year" a few years ago, we haven't heard a lot from him.
They may have been spendthrift but it's not clear how they have been politically partisan, other than the fares freeze which was a manifesto commitment. The very nature of the Mayoral setup encourages the Mayor to make political commitments. Remind me who made TfL buy a cable car nobody uses, spend £50m on a bridge that never got built, and land themselves with a fleet of buses that are not much better than red elephants.
 

Tio Terry

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Isnt that one of the problems - you cant delegate your responsibility - if you are providing a substantial amount of the funding you are responsible for checking how it is being spent and hence being on top of the project. Something nobody seemed to be.

Crossrail 2 is dead - not being an oven ready project it has little going for it.

But the central section, roundly Paddington to Pudding Mill Lane and Abbey Wood, was never the DfT's responsibility and they didn't fund it's construction, TfL did. DfT funding was for the "on Network Works", those works on the existing Networkrail infrastructure which they would have been responsible for even if the central section was not built. Their only input to the central section was to ensure that what was built did not compromise TSI's and National Rules.

Can't comment on Crossrail 2, other than to say I hope you are wrong!
 

deltic

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But the central section, roundly Paddington to Pudding Mill Lane and Abbey Wood, was never the DfT's responsibility and they didn't fund it's construction, TfL did. DfT funding was for the "on Network Works", those works on the existing Networkrail infrastructure which they would have been responsible for even if the central section was not built. Their only input to the central section was to ensure that what was built did not compromise TSI's and National Rules.

Can't comment on Crossrail 2, other than to say I hope you are wrong!
Crossrail's original funding included nearly £5bn from DfT, Network Rail provided £2.3bn for works on its network. DfT appointed its Project Representative back in 2009 to provide it with oversight as the joint project sponsor.
 

takno

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To be fair, even before this, I think the prospects of Crossrail 2 getting built were slim.
I've rated it at more or less zero likelihood of happening for a couple of years. It's too expensive, too irrelevant to the national interest, too far out of line with the political narrative now. Apart from some supremely confident London politicians who seemed to assuming they were going to get it whatever, nobody seemed to want it, and hardly anybody was actually making a case for it

Meanwhile the business case, and the "London pays" tax case is broken. International companies won't continue to cluster there when we are less internationally connected than we have been for 30 years, and national companies won't keep all their head office functions in town at a time when home working and HS2 make that less necessary than it has been at any time in the past.
 

The Ham

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Crossrail 2 also provides capacity uplift for medium/longer distance services out of Waterloo with the extra paths each hour that it was going to provide.

As such just viewing it through the lense of what the benefit to London is would miss a chunk of the benefits.

Having said that it's likely to be some time before it's developed fully and built, yet that may only be 10 years before it's given the green light. I think this because not only could we see 2021 passenger flows being 20% less than 2019 flows, bit also we need to shift away from carbon emissions for our transport and rail (even with its significant use of diesel, ~50% of energy use) is comparable to EV's in terms of CO2/passenger km.

Given that 80% of our transport (by miles traveled? is currently by road, shift this to 79% and +1% to rail and rail's figures goes from 10% to 11% (or an extra 10% more miles than there was before).
 

Tio Terry

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Crossrail's original funding included nearly £5bn from DfT, Network Rail provided £2.3bn for works on its network. DfT appointed its Project Representative back in 2009 to provide it with oversight as the joint project sponsor.
DfT's contribution of £5B was in the form of Grants, DfT didn't manage those grants, that was the responsibility of CRL on behalf of TfL.
 

deltic

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DfT's contribution of £5B was in the form of Grants, DfT didn't manage those grants, that was the responsibility of CRL on behalf of TfL.
You dont hand over £5bn and forget about it - as mentioned DfT appointed Project Representatives to look after its interests in the project of which it was joint project sponsor.
 

HSTEd

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Well if we are looking at the end of peak commuting then that leads inevitably to a desire to substantially cut operating costs.

Have a lot of extremely expensive London termini, a substantial fraction of which will be surplus to requirements.
Crossrail 2 might be able to squeeze in in some form if it allows greater economies elsewhere.
 

deltic

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Well if we are looking at the end of peak commuting then that leads inevitably to a desire to substantially cut operating costs.

Have a lot of extremely expensive London termini, a substantial fraction of which will be surplus to requirements.
Crossrail 2 might be able to squeeze in in some form if it allows greater economies elsewhere.
Difficult to see how £40bn of expenditure will deliver higher levels of savings in terminal operations.
 

HSTEd

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Difficult to see how £40bn of expenditure will deliver higher levels of savings in terminal operations.

Well a couple of terminus stations will be worth a few billion, plus the demolished approach track.
Improved farebox from passenger growth due to improved sections and connections etc etc.
 

Tio Terry

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You dont hand over £5bn and forget about it - as mentioned DfT appointed Project Representatives to look after its interests in the project of which it was joint project sponsor.
DfT appointed Jacobs as their representative. The press release at the time said:-

"The work of the Project Representative will involve reviewing reports, programmes and technical designs to ensure that the scheme, contributing at least £20 billion and an extra 30,000 jobs to the UK economy, will be delivered on time and on budget.

The appointment of a Project Representative is normal practice on any major construction scheme and the size of the team may vary over the life of the project to reflect the changing nature of work. For instance, design experts at the beginning may be replaced by tunnelling and construction experts as the project proceeds."

So reviewing and reporting, not being part of the active management and decision making processes.
 

The Ham

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It may get reconsidered in a few years when COVID is well and truly over. Then 10 years to legislate and plan and 6 years to build. 2040 if ever.

That's the story is timeframe that I was considering. I suspect that rail use could well recover well.

The reason for that thought is that at least on one half of Crossrail 2 (i.e. those passengers approaching from the Waterloo side) rail use was fairly high all day and not just in the peaks. As such whilst we could see significant falls in office related travel, chances are that's going to just result in the need for a slight easing in the need for so many high peak services.

Anyway some of those services has very high levels of use, to the point where they could see a 50% fall in passenger numbers and still have >65% of seats occupied.

It's also arguable that SWR was running too many services anyway and that a small decrease in that would give us a more reliable service.

Also it's worth highlighting that a change to WFH may actually increase rail use, in that 80% if miles traveled is by car and 10% by rail. Therefore if people are traveling less frequently then car ownership (with high upfront costs, especially for the young) becomes less financially viable and so rail becomes one of the options people would consider using more.

Based on 2019 usage a 1.25% shift from road to rail would add back 10% of the 2019 rail use. Given that if 70% of rail use being work related and 60% of jobs are suitable to be done from home and if people WFH an average of 50% of the time then that's a 21% fall in rail use (mostly focused in the peaks) and that's comparable to rail use in 2012 (when we were still talking about needing Crossrail 2), then there's still a fair chance that it could happen in that timeframe or not much slower.

Especially given we need to decarbonise our travel and rail is a good way to do that.

One final point, when I was using SWR to travel there was a lot of local travel (up to a few stations of travel) which was undertaken (I was going no further in than Woking), to the extent that at Farnborough Main there was about as many getting off as were getting on to head towards London (due in part to a lot of education related travel, but a lot of local-ish work travel) which ment that the train was full and standing between Fleet and Farnborough and would have been (at a guess) about 1/3 full at that point (bearing in mind these are 12 coach trains) even without London passengers.

Whilst there's some significant savings (time and money) for those traveling 30 minutes or more for those only traveling 20 minutes or less the savings are going to be less. As such those passengers are going to be less willing to work at home where that increases their heating costs during the winter, where there's likely to be others around (especially children) or they have few social interactions outside of work. As such it's likely that such local travel could be more resilient than the longer distance travel into Central London.

Whatever the outcome we shouldn't rule out projects like Crossrail 2, Southern Approach to Heathrow, etc. until at least 2025 when we have some idea of what post Covid-19 (or at least a note established normal has been created) passenger numbers are going to look like.
 

Bald Rick

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Then 10 years to legislate and plan and 6 years to build. 2040 if ever.

It was already 2040 before this. However most of the planning is done; it ‘just’ needs consent and design, in theory it is only 4-5 years from construction starting fo someone has the cash. Which they don’t.
 
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