will east coast trains participate in regular rail ticketing?

[Watershed]

Even if you are able to rock up and buy their own tickets at a regular ticket office or Ticket Machine?

The examples you cite are basically charter services, albeit regularly operating. Not really intended for "normal" journeys, hence lack of inclusion in NRE.

That's circular reasoning!

The only reason you'll be able to buy ECTL tickets from the ticket office (and the minority of TVMs that sell Advances) is because the services are in the National Rail timetable.

If they weren't in the National Rail timetable you would have to buy them in the same way as a charter service.

I think there is a lot of scope for confusion, particularly on the shorter flows (e.g. Morpeth to Newcastle), if they get to pick and choose which bits of the National Rail system they participate in. "Any Permitted" wouldn't really mean "Any Permitted".

 

[Starmill]

ETCL retailing products through anyone but themselves adds cost. The fact that they actually will be doing that overwhelmingly means they'll need to be shown in the national rail timetable.

"Any Permitted" wouldn't really mean "Any Permitted".

I agree with what you're thinking here but the phrase never really meant much to the customer anyway. Then again, nor does ECTL, or other bizarre abbreviations like TFWRS.

 

[Haywain]

Even if you are able to rock up and buy their own tickets at a regular ticket office or Ticket Machine?

We don’t yet know if that will be the case.

 

[alistairlees]

We don’t yet know if that will be the case.

We do. They have created the ticket types and they are able to be retailed anywhere.

 

[JonathanH]

We do. They have created the ticket types and they are able to be retailed anywhere.

You mean this, routed 'AP ECTL ONLY' as a placeholder with a £999.90 price pending confirmation of the actual figure and not available for purchase?
https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=KGX&dest=EDB&rte=1433&tkt=L8A

 

[Bletchleyite]

Originally they didn't as they were funded by BAA outside the franchised network. But Heathrow is now part of the national network, it is operated as part of the GWR contract.

They have always been part of the national ticketing system with through tickets from all stations (though these sometimes don't make financial sense). They aren't, as others have said, part of the TfL fares system.

That's up to the new operator to manage, it really is. Saying "Oh, we find it too difficult, so we're going to stiff financially anyone boarding outside our conditions instead" is just not acceptable.

As a private business and not a franchised TOC they can do what they like. If you don't like what they do, don't travel with them. They will operate a few trains a day against LNER's massive number.

Talking of Any Permitted tickets, the number of people wanting to use those is likely to be very low. London-Edinburgh has single fare pricing, and ECTL is aiming to be cheaper than LNER, so as long as it's more than a tenner cheaper (which I suspect it mostly will be) you'd be better off buying afresh and refunding your walk-up Any Permitted ticket.

 

[alistairlees]

You mean this, routed 'AP ECTL ONLY' as a placeholder with a £999.90 price pending confirmation of the actual figure and not available for purchase?
https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=KGX&dest=EDB&rte=1433&tkt=L8A

Yes, although there’s a pile more. Not just that one.

 

[Wallsendmag]

We don’t yet know if that will be the case.

Remember the KGX EDB fares problem?

 

[thedbdiboy]

They have always been part of the national ticketing system with through tickets from all stations (though these sometimes don't make financial sense). They aren't, as others have said, part of the TfL fares system.

There were always through fares but they weren't compiled in the normal way, being created by agreements hence the weird anomalies. But they weren't part of the retailing infrastructure so in the past there was a bizarre situation whereby you could by tickets to and from Heathrow at other stations but not Heathrow itself.

 

[pdeaves]

As regards East Coast doing 'normal' tickets or not, it is notable that Grand Central and Hull Trains accept relevant 'any permitted' tickets but not rovers (or at least not the ones I looked at). So, this suggests that open access operators may be able to pick and choose which things they want to take part in and which they don't.

 

[XAM2175]

As regards East Coast doing 'normal' tickets or not, it is notable that Grand Central and Hull Trains accept relevant 'any permitted' tickets but not rovers (or at least not the ones I looked at). So, this suggests that open access operators may be able to pick and choose which things they want to take part in and which they don't.

GC and HT do accept the All Line Rover (while HX, for comparison, don't).

 

[Deafdoggie]

An off peak ticket is flexible enough for me to be treated as a flexible ticket as I generally don't travel before 09:30 unless something has gone seriously wrong.

And these new tickets will be flexible enough for others. It all depends what you mean by flexible.
However, that is probably irrelevant for most of their passengers who will be choosing by price.

 

[Ianno87]

And these new tickets will be flexible enough for others. It all depends what you mean by flexible.
However, that is probably irrelevant for most of their passengers who will be choosing by price.

To many, "Flexible" just means a range of departures across the day, and you're happy to fix yourself down to which ever time train (or price) suits you best. Especially on a long journey like London-Edinburgh where most people will have to plan a particular train anyway as part of their day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To many, "Flexible" just means a range of departures across the day, and you're happy to fix yourself down to which ever time train (or price) suits you best. Especially on a long journey like London-Edinburgh where most people will have to plan a particular train anyway as part of their day.

In all travel industries a flexible ticket is one that can be changed free of charge to any departure (e.g. an Anytime or a full fare IATA plane ticket), and a semi flexible one can be changed free of charge to some departures or may require a fee for a change (e.g. all normal easyJet tickets). Advances and Off Peaks are by definition the latter though they are flexible in different ways. Non flexible tickets are not changeable or refundable, I don't think the railway presently has any of these but Apexes I think used to be.

It is not sensible to use these terms in other ways as these are the widely accepted travel industry usage.

 

[Dr Day]

Interesting thread raising all sorts of issues around national fares, ticket retailing and journey planning.

A further 'benefit' of the national system is through fares - will East Coast club together with any other operator to offer any point-to-point extensions beyond the London-Edinburgh route? eg London-Inverness as a combination of East Coast and Scotrail?

 

[najaB]

Non flexible tickets are not changeable or refundable, I don't think the railway presently has any of these but Apexes I think used to be.

They do (in effect) where the change fee exceeds the value of the ticket.

 

[yorkie]

I'd they don't accept "Any permitted" tickets they surely cannot appear in regular journey planners; it's as simple as that.

There are private operators who don't accept such tickets and their trains - quite rightly - do not appear.

Even if you are able to rock up and buy their own tickets at a regular ticket office or Ticket Machine?

The examples you cite are basically charter services, albeit regularly operating. Not really intended for "normal" journeys, hence lack of inclusion in NRE.

If you are suggesting NRE should show trains which are not usable for passengers holding interavailable fares, that would be an absurd argument.

Interesting thread raising all sorts of issues around national fares, ticket retailing and journey planning.

A further 'benefit' of the national system is through fares - will East Coast club together with any other operator to offer any point-to-point extensions beyond the London-Edinburgh route? eg London-Inverness as a combination of East Coast and Scotrail?

I predict it will probably be necessary to use a split ticket retailer to get the best value on such journeys; that's certainly the case on Grand Central, with very few exceptions

 

[Bletchleyite]

They do (in effect) where the change fee exceeds the value of the ticket.

Yes, I suppose de-facto Advances costing less than £10 are non-flexible.

 

[New2rail1]

Other Operators' Tickets - Lumo

At Lumo, we believe our simple great value fares will be all you need, but we realise you may need to use our services with another ticket.

www.lumo.co.uk

This may be of interest in regards to other tickets.

Seems like you'll be able to use any permitted tickets.