Will HS2 Be more repliable than the ECML or WCML

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mralexn

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It seems now that every single day, there is some massive problem on either the WCML and ECML,

With HS2 now going ahead, once built do you think it will be very reliable?
What will be done to ensure that common problems do not occur, Ie.
Power lines down, Signalling Problems, and anything else you can shake a stick at! :P

If this has been discussed to death on some random thread from 7 years ago im sorry :P and can you please send me a link :D

(Terrible grammer! it is.. Will HS2 Be more reliable than the ECML or WCML)
 
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Wyvern

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One assumes that it will be as reliable as HS1 given the similar usage, length for length ?
 

Schnellzug

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Welll, since it'll be built from scratch with money no object (it appears), with no lineside signalling and no level crossings, and all trains running at about the same speed, and the overheard designed to cater for high speed trains, then I should hope so.
 

mralexn

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Welll, since it'll be built from scratch with money no object (it appears), with no lineside signalling and no level crossings, and all trains running at about the same speed, and the overheard designed to cater for high speed trains, then I should hope so.
so there won't be the wrong kind of darkness or the wrong kind of sunshine on the line then ;)
 

amcluesent

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I'd be pessimistic TBH.

The trains will be loaded with PLC and microcontrollers, so the software will be 'running the show'. With the inevitable bugs and wayward sensors, the 'safety trips' will be firing nineteen to the dozen and the crew won't be able to do anything as "computer says no". It'll be touch and go if the Thunderbirds can even drag the set away.

Then theres the whole issue of new singalling, again reliant on software, telemetry and sensors (plus the cable theft!)

With the usual bungling of civil engineering in England, I expect corners will be cut and Mexican steel made of cheese will be used for the OHLE, so that'll be fragile like ECML

Not a reliability issue, but no doubt HS2 will attract a number of unfortunates who want to end their life on the tracks.
 

LexyBoy

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Then theres the whole issue of new singalling, again reliant on software, telemetry and sensors (plus the cable theft!)
Surely in-cab signalling should be less prone to cable theft?

And the "new" signalling will be old hat by the time HS2 starts running in 2065.

I reckon it will be pretty reliable, after the initial teething problems. It's certainly be an easier proposition to get it running smoothly than it is Crossrail or Thameslink.
 

transmanche

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Not a reliability issue, but no doubt HS2 will attract a number of unfortunates who want to end their life on the tracks.
With no level crossings, no intermediate stations (in phase 1) and lineside fencing, there will be far fewer opportunities for a person to commit suicide compared to the 'classic' network.

How many suicides have there been on HS1?
 

HSTEd

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I'd be pessimistic TBH.

Then theres the whole issue of new singalling, again reliant on software, telemetry and sensors (plus the cable theft!)
Well if they did it properly it would be using an ETCS Level 3 implementation which means the only cabling on the tracks would be connected to pointwork and the like.

This cabling would consist of a power cable as the data lines would likely be multi-mode fibre optic using a LAN-type topology to connect it to the data handling points posistioned at intervals along the track, probably adjacent to the GSM-R stations.

Stealing a power cable is far harder than low voltage signalling cables.
 

monty9120

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nothing can be worse then the single track from new street to birmingham international. something goes wrong and it all goes pear shape
 

Waddon

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My main concern on this when it comes to HS2 is the extreme distance between points where trains can join/exit the line in the event of a failure, with the exception of maybe a maintenance depot where the line crosses the east-west route, if (for example) the wires came down, is there anywhere that a stranded train can be towed to or where passengers can be safely detrained anywhere between Old Oak and Birmingham International?

I would also be interested to hear of the figures for train failures etc for HS1 now that it has been running for a while
 

Chris125

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How often does HS1 suffer from infrastructure issues? High Speed Lines are very reliable and i see no reason to think HS2 will be any different.

Chris
 

Mike C

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Chris125 - rarely. I can think of only one major incident in recent months when a 395 stole some of the catenary near Rainham. Our continent-bound sets were stacked up back to SPI.

In short, infrastructure issues on HS1 are few and far between. I've not had cause to be concerned with it in relation to our trains.
 

David

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I'd be pessimistic TBH.

The trains will be loaded with PLC and microcontrollers, so the software will be 'running the show'. With the inevitable bugs and wayward sensors, the 'safety trips' will be firing nineteen to the dozen and the crew won't be able to do anything as "computer says no". It'll be touch and go if the Thunderbirds can even drag the set away.

Then theres the whole issue of new singalling, again reliant on software, telemetry and sensors (plus the cable theft!)

With the usual bungling of civil engineering in England, I expect corners will be cut and Mexican steel made of cheese will be used for the OHLE, so that'll be fragile like ECML

Not a reliability issue, but no doubt HS2 will attract a number of unfortunates who want to end their life on the tracks.
Are you deliberately trolling the forum, or is it just a natural ability?

Because it will be a high speed line, that means the infrastructure will be very robust. Look at HS1 for example. It's very rare that you hear of delays along there because the wires have come down. Most delays are due to train faults, which are not that common either.

Also, the stock, seeing it will more than likely be a new design, so 1 of the things the stock will have to go through is 1000 miles fault free running before it enters service. For UIC gauge stock, this will probably be have to be done at Wildenrath (sp?) or at night along HS1.
 

DownSouth

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Also, the stock, seeing it will more than likely be a new design, so 1 of the things the stock will have to go through is 1000 miles fault free running before it enters service. For UIC gauge stock, this will probably be have to be done at Wildenrath (sp?) or at night along HS1.
Clocking up 1000mi/1600km around a 6.1 km test track like Wegberg-Wildenrath would be like saying "I'm going to train for the Tour de France" and proceeding to ride laps around the nearest shopping centre carpark. I can't imagine anything more boring for a train driver, and the 160 km/h limit would hardly make it a decent test site for trains designed to do double that speed.

Restricting it to HS1 could be just as problematic, being such a short line would mean lots of trips to get the required distance or time. On the other hand, just two Paris-Lyon return trips or one London-Marseille return trip on the LGV would easily account for 1000mi/1600km. Using European high speed lines would surely be appropriate since the HS2 trains are likely to be based on a proven European design and all equipped with the necessary signalling equipment to run cross-Channel services to/from at least France, Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands.

With the distances that high speed services cover in such short amounts of time, you would actually hope that the 1000mi/1600km requirement would be a mere formality because the manufacturers would have far more stringent requirements before they passed a set as ready to be handed over. That distance might be an appropriate benchmark for classic stock used in the UK, but for high speed trains that only accounts for 5-6 hours of use.
 

Schnellzug

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Also, the stock, seeing it will more than likely be a new design, so 1 of the things the stock will have to go through is 1000 miles fault free running before it enters service. For UIC gauge stock, this will probably be have to be done at Wildenrath (sp?) or at night along HS1.
Clocking up 1000mi/1600km around a 6.1 km test track like Wegberg-Wildenrath would be like saying "I'm going to train for the Tour de France" and proceeding to ride laps around the nearest shopping centre carpark. I can't imagine anything more boring for a train driver, and the 160 km/h limit would hardly make it a decent test site for trains designed to do double that speed.

Restricting it to HS1 could be just as problematic, being such a short line would mean lots of trips to get the required distance or time. On the other hand, just two Paris-Lyon return trips or one London-Marseille return trip on the LGV would easily account for 1000mi/1600km. Using European high speed lines would surely be appropriate since the HS2 trains are likely to be based on a proven European design and all equipped with the necessary signalling equipment to run cross-Channel services to/from at least France, Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands.

With the distances that high speed services cover in such short amounts of time, you would actually hope that the 1000mi/1600km requirement would be a mere formality because the manufacturers would have far more stringent requirements before they passed a set as ready to be handed over. That distance might be an appropriate benchmark for classic stock used in the UK, but for high speed trains that only accounts for 5-6 hours of use.
So why not just buy it off the shelf? or (altogether now) will it have to be British, (pauses to wave flag), so something completely new would have to be dreamed up? really, i think the British market alone couldn't sustain an entirely independent, all-British manufacturer, like BREL tried to be, there just wouldn't be the volumes to make it viable.
 

Yew

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Because in Europe most trains reside around 200mph, so there might not be anything designed to do the 250 we need. And where will we be getting 250 mph capable uk guage stock from? The closest I can think of is Eurostar.

It's a shame that any stock will bro ably be multiple units though, Then again with our intercity mu's limited to voyagers and pendys, improvement over those shouldn't be too hard
 

Schnellzug

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Because in Europe most trains reside around 200mph, so there might not be anything designed to do the 250 we need. And where will we be getting 250 mph capable uk guage stock from? The closest I can think of is Eurostar.

It's a shame that any stock will bro ably be multiple units though, Then again with our intercity mu's limited to voyagers and pendys, improvement over those shouldn't be too hard
UK Guage? But surely they're building it from scratch, to continental loading guage, aren't they, and that would surely mean adapting where it does meet with existing lines to accommodate it. They're not planning to run it on to traditional lines, are they, like with TGVs? Regarding the Speed issue (why on earth does the Government want to go so ludicruously fast to birmingham anyway?), I'm sure that, in 25 years or however long it might actually be, Bombardier, Siemens, Alstom or whoever else there might be by then would not find it an insuperable obstacle. A basically stock TGV, albeit with new traction motors, has, after all, gone at 357.2 mph already.
 

Nym

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UK Guage? But surely they're building it from scratch, to continental loading guage, aren't they, and that would surely mean adapting where it does meet with existing lines to accommodate it. They're not planning to run it on to traditional lines, are they, like with TGVs? Regarding the Speed issue (why on earth does the Government want to go so ludicruously fast to birmingham anyway?), I'm sure that, in 25 years or however long it might actually be, Bombardier, Siemens, Alstom or whoever else there might be by then would not find it an insuperable obstacle. A basically stock TGV, albeit with new traction motors, has, after all, gone at 357.2 mph already.
With bigger wheels, a downhill run, low pressure day, fettled track etc etc.

250mph isn't unrealistic tbh

And yes, services will extend off HS2a to Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, York, Glasgow etc etc etc.
 

HSTEd

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With bigger wheels, a downhill run, low pressure day, fettled track etc etc.

250mph isn't unrealistic tbh

And yes, services will extend off HS2a to Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, York, Glasgow etc etc etc.
360kph running was tested by the Japanese, they concluded the additional wear on the trains and equipment was not worth the marginal travel time benefits.

Even the chinese only did it to show that they could and I believe they have stopped now after that accident.
 

Schnellzug

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Since all this hypothetical hypothesising is for something that won't happen until about 2040, I'm sure that, if GE could design a brand new loco completely from scratch in a couple of years, Alstom, Siemens or Tararaboumbardiyay would have no problem modifying whatever designs they might be offering by then to fit.
 

Chris125

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I dont see any need to worry about the rolling stock, it will almost certainly be a proven off-the-shelf design, probably the latest Velaro/AGV variant, to minimise risk.

The classic-compatible sets will need to be a new design, but that shouldnt be too challenging with distributed drive now the norm and traction packages being shrunk and lightened, perhaps even allowing double-deck MU's in due course.

Chris
 

HSTEd

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The classic-compatible sets will need to be a new design, but that shouldnt be too challenging with distributed drive now the norm and traction packages being shrunk and lightened, perhaps even allowing double-deck MU's in due course.

Chris
We have double deck quite high speed multiple units now (~150mph top speed) on the Shinkansen, and those are rather old now and do not have the benefit of the latest generation of traction electronics.

The only reason an AGV Duplex causes issues is the Jacob's Bogies.
 

DownSouth

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For the classic compatible sets, perhaps existing Eurostar sets could be used for them after a good mid-life refurbishment. With both stages of CTRL now complete and operating, Eurostar services can now be run with full-sized sets and their British-sized sets put to more appropriate use.
 
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