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Will Labour scrap the £2 fare Cap? (now confirmed will rise to £3)

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Starmill

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Interesting that the Red Arrow isn't in the scheme when similar Stagecoach and Arriva express routes around Milton Keynes are.
They presumably had the foresight that the RA is marketed as "faster than the train" given it serves Derby city centre more directly, although it's a close run thing now 4tph run. As such it makes it an impossible task to build patronage back up after tripling the fare when it ends. The other trentbarton routes that go all the way are included in the £2, so anyone looking to save money will still be going on trentbarton. The X43 and X41 from Manchester to Lancashire towns are the same, if they tried to quadruple the fare overnight it'd be really really painful for them.

I must be behind the times, Red Arrow routes that I knew were Leyland Nationals in London. Obviously not what's being referred to here! Not being local to the area what is Red Arrow referring to here?
Nottingham - Derby express run by trentbarton.
 
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joieman

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I must be behind the times, Red Arrow routes that I knew were Leyland Nationals in London. Obviously not what's being referred to here! Not being local to the area what is Red Arrow referring to here?
Trentbarton's express coach service between Nottingham and Derby (which previously continued to Chesterfield until that section of the route was severed and became the Comet).
Presumably they think that with the Indigo and i4 also running between Nottingham and Derby, they can charge a premium for the extra speed.
 

317 forever

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Come to think of it, cash fares on buses already have an inherent disadvantage over contactless fares as daily capping can't really be implemented for cash fares. I don't think any other methods to discourage the use of cash is really warranted, otherwise it's going to put certain types of people at a major disadvantage.

Personally, I genuinely hate using my card on buses: firstly, because the way the cash is taken from my account is genuinely confusing; secondly, I can see where my money's going more easily with cash; and thirdly, because I genuinely also dislike having to be thinking about tapping off on longer journeys when I should be relaxing!
It's the tapping off idea, and having to use my card more than once that I would hate.

Admittedly I did use my card 3 times on my day trip in July, but that was for 1 day ticket and 2 singles in an area straddling 2 authorities where that was more cost-effective than 2 separate day tickets.

buying tickets on the bus definitely slows things down hugely

Going back a decade now since I got buses in Leeds so they may have a more sensible approach but the time it took to get passengers on was sometimes ridiculous - especially on a Monday when everyone was buying their weekly ticket, which then had to printed off and put in a plastic wallet. Repeat that at every stop and it’s a lot of time.
When I was travelling to work I used to get irritated by so many people buying their weekly ticket on a Monday. Why not Sunday, or Saturday when buses are more frequent?
 
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londonteacher

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When I was travelling to work I used to get irritated by so many people buying their weekly ticket on a Monday. Why not Sunday, or Saturday when buses are more frequent?
Because most people start their week on a Monday and might not therefore travel on a weekend using a bus.
 

317 forever

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If the government decides to completely scrap the £2 fare cap at the end of December, what are bus companies most likely to do? Will they go back to exactly the same fare structures for pricing single fares as 2 years ago? There is, of course 2 years worth quite high of inflation to consider which would result in fares being much higher than 2 years ago. The price of day tickets has continued to rise with inflation during the period of the £2 cap. My local Stagecoach day ticket was £7.90 at the end of 2022. During the last 2 years this first rose to £8.50 and more recently another increase to £9.50. Is there any chance that some individual bus companies will initially price single fares at a level lower than they were before the £2 cap to soften the blow.
Ironically, the non reduction of the price of day tickets is likely to have increased the numbers of single tickets bought on the bus.

If we make 3 or 4 journeys a day for example, the day ticket will often be more expensive than all the singles put together.

It is a pity that Smartcards are not more widely used. I would be all too happy to top up my Smartcard by £10 a time, and redeem it for 5 single journeys before topping up again. Then no need for the driver to issue a ticket.

Because most people start their week on a Monday and might not therefore travel on a weekend using a bus.
They can take a few minutes out to travel a couple of stops, maybe just 1 stop, and buy the ticket then.

They would save themselves and other people time in the long run.
 
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Starmill

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They can take a few minutes out to travel a couple of stops, maybe just 1 stop, and buy the ticket then.

They would save themselves and other people time in the long run
I think you're thinking way too far into this. Nobody in their right mind would do that.
 

Bletchleyite

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I think you're thinking way too far into this. Nobody in their right mind would do that.

The way you avoid people doing that is quite simple - incentivise the purchase of electronic seasons by making them slightly cheaper.

I have a couple of times flagged a bus down to buy a ticket without the intention to travel - in one case I wanted a few day tickets for a Scout activity and in the other a season issued by MK Metro (when they were a thing) as they were accepted on tendered services but not the other way round. But that's very rare.
 

johncrossley

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When I was travelling to work I used to get irritated by so many people buying their weekly ticket on a Monday. Why not Sunday, or Saturday when buses are more frequent?

Selling weekly tickets from the bus driver is barking mad. This has never been done in London, at least in living memory, is rarely (if ever) done in major cities in developed countries outside the UK and is not a serious way to run a service, unless you don't care how long bus journeys take.
 

londonteacher

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They can take a few minutes out to travel a couple of stops, maybe just 1 stop, and buy the ticket then.

They would save themselves and other people time in the long run.
What a ridiculous idea!

So, what if they do not have a weekend service to do that? I do not have one where I live, but I purchase in the app. Not everyone wants to/can use an app. Where I live most people do seem to use the app, but some people prefer the paper ticket.

It takes no more than 30 seconds to purchase the ticket. Anymore than that is either driver or passenger error, or software design issues.
 

Trainman40083

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They are but at speeds in towns probably not much difference, very little regeneration at low speeds.


I must be behind the times, Red Arrow routes that I knew were Leyland Nationals in London. Obviously not what's being referred to here! Not being local to the area what is Red Arrow referring to here?
The Red Arrow in this case, is the Trentbarton "coach service on a good day" from Derby to Nottingham along the A52, that road known at Brian Clough Way, as he served at football clubs at both ends.

I had a ride round trentbartonland yesterday and after a succession of £2 fares the fare charged on the Red Arrow seemed like an absolute fortune

£6.30 for a single on a journey that is about 35 minutes

Whereas before the fare cap, I imagine this would have been normal, and fares on all the other nearby services would have been around that amount
If you had such a ride round, I am surprised you did not have a Zigzag day ticket for £8ish, then the Red Arrow fare would have been included.
 

Baxenden Bank

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Selling weekly tickets from the bus driver is barking mad. This has never been done in London, at least in living memory, is rarely (if ever) done in major cities in developed countries outside the UK and is not a serious way to run a service, unless you don't care how long bus journeys take.
At the time it probably allowed the closure of many booking offices because 'everyone is buying on board now'.
 

317 forever

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What a ridiculous idea!

So, what if they do not have a weekend service to do that? I do not have one where I live, but I purchase in the app. Not everyone wants to/can use an app. Where I live most people do seem to use the app, but some people prefer the paper ticket.

It takes no more than 30 seconds to purchase the ticket. Anymore than that is either driver or passenger error, or software design issues.
You are right that some tickets take barely 30 seconds to print, notably singles and day tickets for example. (I welcome you using you app for your ticket purchases by the way).

However, if you have been following the discussion, you will notice that this particular point stems from the mention of the time it takes to print the ticket then put it in the wallet, plus how many so many people purchase theirs on a Monday.

I hope not to receive any more replies from you on this particular subject.
 

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Can we keep things polite and friendly from here please.

Thank you
 

Starmill

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The way you avoid people doing that is quite simple - incentivise the purchase of electronic seasons by making them slightly cheaper.

I have a couple of times flagged a bus down to buy a ticket without the intention to travel - in one case I wanted a few day tickets for a Scout activity and in the other a season issued by MK Metro (when they were a thing) as they were accepted on tendered services but not the other way round. But that's very rare.
I agree, there's literally no reason any more for not doing 1 day - 7 day tickets in app. It's perfect for them.

The Red Arrow in this case, is the Trentbarton "coach service on a good day"
Some of us may pay £6.30 for a high-speed non-stop Solo ride, but shh :lol:
 

renegademaster

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You are right that some tickets take barely 30 seconds to print, notably singles and day tickets for example. (I welcome you using you app for your ticket purchases by the way).

However, if you have been following the discussion, you will notice that this particular point stems from the mention of the time it takes to print the ticket then put it in the wallet, plus how many so many people purchase theirs on a Monday.

I hope not to receive any more replies from you on this particular subject.
Does it take more time to print a week ticket than it does to print a day one?
 

Bletchleyite

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What a ridiculous idea!

So, what if they do not have a weekend service to do that? I do not have one where I live, but I purchase in the app. Not everyone wants to/can use an app. Where I live most people do seem to use the app, but some people prefer the paper ticket.

It takes no more than 30 seconds to purchase the ticket. Anymore than that is either driver or passenger error, or software design issues.

Thirty seconds times ten passengers is five minutes. That is why UK buses run so excruciatingly slowly.

The mind boggles why operators haven't realised how much time and thus money it costs them to continue on board sales.

Does it take more time to print a week ticket than it does to print a day one?

Yes, because you have to put it in a sticky backed wallet. But all cash and card ticket sales massively waste time.
 

stevieinselby

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When I was travelling to work I used to get irritated by so many people buying their weekly ticket on a Monday. Why not Sunday, or Saturday when buses are more frequent?
Buses are rarely more frequent on Saturday, and are often less frequent.
What's the frequency got to do with people buying tickets?
Most people buying weekly tickets don't buy those tickets at the weekend because a lot of them aren't travelling at the weekend.
 

renegademaster

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In continental europe even in little villages you have "TABAC" shops where you can get weekly bus passes and stuff. This doesnt really exist here but ypu could make it part of paypoint
 

johncrossley

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In continental europe even in little villages you have "TABAC" shops where you can get weekly bus passes and stuff. This doesnt really exist here but ypu could make it part of paypoint

Some bus companies already sell weekly tickets through Paypoint. Therefore it is a deliberate choice made by bus companies to not allow Paypoint. There are so many alternatives available to on bus payment now. For example mobile apps, online topping up of ITSO cards and contactless capping. So bus companies could stop on bus sales today if they wanted to, but they are too conservative to consider that. They won't do anything unless they are forced into it.
 

Deerfold

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In continental europe even in little villages you have "TABAC" shops where you can get weekly bus passes and stuff. This doesnt really exist here but ypu could make it part of paypoint
Before West Yorkshire's Metro had everything on their mobile app they let you buy tickets at Paypoints.
My local one never managed to sell me a ticket in dozen attempts over a couple of years. They gave any number of excuses.
In my youth, scratch off day tickets were buyable at hundreds of newsagents and post offices, but I'm guessing the costs of distribution got higher.

Some bus companies already sell weekly tickets through Paypoint. Therefore it is a deliberate choice made by bus companies to not allow Paypoint. There are so many alternatives available to on bus payment now. For example mobile apps, online topping of ITSO cards and contactless capping. So bus companies could stop on bus sales today if they wanted to, but they are too conservative to consider that. They won't do anything unless they are forced into it.
Except they can't participate in the £2 capping scheme if they don't.

My local bus company had got almost all sales onto their app until two singles a day became cheaper for many people.
 
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Starmill

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Which is stupid. It should be the other way around. Driver sales should be banned from the scheme.
Is that realistic for small operations? A lot of them don't have an app, and only have a tiny handful of ticket machines as they only ever do one or two stage carriage routes at a time.

If tap-on-tap-off technology were free to them, maybe.
 

johncrossley

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Is that realistic for small operations? A lot of them don't have an app, and only have a tiny handful of ticket machines as they only ever do one or two stage carriage routes at a time.

If tap-on-tap-off technology were free to them, maybe.

They are not exempt from other regulations, such as ENCTS passes, disabled access etc. This is really an issue of having fragmented ticketing arrangements. If we had regional or national ticketing, instead of allowing each operator their own range of tickets, then this wouldn't be an issue.
 

renegademaster

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Ive got the feeling the bus companies are largely happy with the niche they are in which is people who have a place to go , often with their ticket paid in some way or another by the goverment , that don't care especially when they get there. You are never going to beat cars in provincal towns on speed, so ensuring that you dont chase away your largely elderly/disabled/marginilised customer base by forcing everything to go through a smartphone isnt something they are going to be rushing to do.
 

Richard Scott

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Trentbarton's express coach service between Nottingham and Derby (which previously continued to Chesterfield until that section of the route was severed and became the Comet).
Presumably they think that with the Indigo and i4 also running between Nottingham and Derby, they can charge a premium for the extra speed.
Ok, thanks you. Not an area I'm familiar with buswise.
 

Ghostbus

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Thirty seconds times ten passengers is five minutes. That is why UK buses run so excruciatingly slowly.

The mind boggles why operators haven't realised how much time and thus money it costs them to continue on board sales.
Probably because this isn't true?

With tracking and Twitter, it's never been easier to get the sense any delay of over 5 minutes is usually going to be traffic, an incident or a poorly bus. If anything, buses have been running early because there are less passengers overall.

They would be mad to go this route, especially now. There must be millions of recently retired people out there who are not quite old enough for a bus pass yet, but who baulk at anything techie. They want to buy a ticket for cash or with another method they are familiar with. Mess them around, they'll just keep the second car they were hoping to sell. Or get lifts from friends. Or just not travel.
 

Starmill

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They are not exempt from other regulations, such as ENCTS passes, disabled access etc. This is really an issue of having fragmented ticketing arrangements. If we had regional or national ticketing, instead of allowing each operator their own range of tickets, then this wouldn't be an issue.
I agree, it's easily within the power of the government to apply these standards of ticketing but they choose not to pay for them.
 

greenline712

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Something that needs stating in this debate is that any on-bus OR off-bus ticketing comes with a cost. If the SME operator has only one or two routes, they'd need only a few ETMs. It's a while since I was involved directly, but in 2020 the price of one Ticketer machine was around £3k. On top of that was an annual fee for the software, which came at several levels, and of course at several prices (and I can't now recall what they were). If you wanted an app, then you bought one off-the-peg, which obviously came at a price. You could sign up to a season ticket e-ticket provider . . . again, at a price. And the cost in time and effort to actually load the fares and update same . . . and that isn't simple . . . I know of one LTA that has 5 or 6 variants of a child discount card; same fares, but they have to be uploaded individually!!

My point is that, for an operator that sells few tickets; whose business is mainly contracts and ENCTS passes (and there are many operators like that), this is all an extra expense that is unlikely to be recouped other than by increasing fares. Yes, it is necessary to have some kit to comply with BODS, but actually such investment is likely to affect profits. I know of one operator who folded because they couldn't justify the expense, and used an Almex machine until the end.

Cash fares are cheap to administer. I'll also make the point that some passengers (I refuse to call them customers!) actually only have cash . . . they are paid weekly in cash, and prefer that as they can budget easier that way. Not everyone has a smart phone, or can use computers . . . and dare I say that these folk are also predominately bus users.

I don't want to get into a back and forth debate, but please remember that one size really doesn't fit all. We've seen what happens with the threat of closing station ticket offices, and forcing passengers to buy from remote machines or on-line . . . and we seem to be discussing exactly that here!!
 

Andyh82

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Some bus companies already sell weekly tickets through Paypoint. Therefore it is a deliberate choice made by bus companies to not allow Paypoint. There are so many alternatives available to on bus payment now. For example mobile apps, online topping up of ITSO cards and contactless capping. So bus companies could stop on bus sales today if they wanted to, but they are too conservative to consider that. They won't do anything unless they are forced into it.
In regards to weekly tickets being sold on bus, at least where I am in West Yorks, it was introduced as a convenience factor in the customer focussed 1990s

Prior to that weekly tickets generally were in the form of photo cards with a date stamped ticket, and you’d have to visit either a travel centre or a post office to buy one

Then in the 1990s the idea of buying on bus with sticky backed wallets was introduced and it was seen as more convenient. So rather than moving to off bus ticketing they actually moved away from it.

Of course this was all in the days before smart ticketing, contactless etc
 

johncrossley

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Something that needs stating in this debate is that any on-bus OR off-bus ticketing comes with a cost. If the SME operator has only one or two routes, they'd need only a few ETMs. It's a while since I was involved directly, but in 2020 the price of one Ticketer machine was around £3k. On top of that was an annual fee for the software, which came at several levels, and of course at several prices (and I can't now recall what they were). If you wanted an app, then you bought one off-the-peg, which obviously came at a price. You could sign up to a season ticket e-ticket provider . . . again, at a price. And the cost in time and effort to actually load the fares and update same . . . and that isn't simple . . . I know of one LTA that has 5 or 6 variants of a child discount card; same fares, but they have to be uploaded individually!!

My point is that, for an operator that sells few tickets; whose business is mainly contracts and ENCTS passes (and there are many operators like that), this is all an extra expense that is unlikely to be recouped other than by increasing fares. Yes, it is necessary to have some kit to comply with BODS, but actually such investment is likely to affect profits. I know of one operator who folded because they couldn't justify the expense, and used an Almex machine until the end.
If the tendering authority provides the machines to all their contractors, both large and small, this would surely be cost effective all around, especially if they set the fares for all routes in the region too.
Cash fares are cheap to administer. I'll also make the point that some passengers (I refuse to call them customers!) actually only have cash . . . they are paid weekly in cash, and prefer that as they can budget easier that way. Not everyone has a smart phone, or can use computers . . . and dare I say that these folk are also predominately bus users.
These people are relatively unlikely to switch to cars if the cash option is removed. Cash hasn't been accepted on London buses for over 10 years now. It seemed controversial at the time but now going back to paying in cash would seem odd.
 
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