Will Labour scrap the £2 fare Cap? (now confirmed will rise to £3)

[Megafuss]

The shadow fares are not going to jump by 50% as a response to the fare cap rise of the same percentage.

I think what we'll see in towns and cities, is an effective return to almost fully commercial fares. Where I live the short single at the end of 2022 was £1.80 and long hop was £2.80. £2 and £3 is probably where fares would be now anyway.

 

[GusB]

It is the same with the x40 Reading to Oxford Service. £4 return for an hour and a half journey each way is acceptable. When this increases, it will be uncompetitive compared to GWR price and time wise, who will get you there in less than half an hour each way.

Are you for real?

I don't know the exact route the X40 takes, but you're looking at a round trip of over 50 miles (source - Google maps); do you really expect to do this for £4 there and back? If so, you really need to get a grip. My 7-mile single fare is just short of £6 and a day ticket just short of £8; I still consider my day ticket price to be quite good value if I'm going across town or making an additional journey within the relevant zone.

Your fares are still a damn sight cheaper than they would have been whether or not the cap is £2 or a £3, so if I were you I'd stop complaining - £3 each way for such a journey is an absolute bargain and you're lucky to have the fare cap. People in other parts of the UK aren't quite so lucky and we don't all have the luxury of having a rail alternative if we fancy a quicker journey.

 

[stevieinselby]

Presumably that was intended to stop companies gaming the system by hiking fares no one was paying to get more money out of the government. But if a £2.30 fare goes up to £3 that makes no difference to the government because it's still not over the cap. Companies were allowed to get rid of any fare below £2 regardless of RPI, I doubt it'll be different for £3.

I believe the shadow fares will be used in calculating rebates for ENCTS and lost income from the fares cap, which is why the government needs to ensure they are kept at a sensible rate. Obviously any fares that are no higher than the cap won't affect lost income, so it makes sense that there was no restriction there.

 

[duncombec]

Those of you seeking to know the "shadow fares", or indeed any fares at all if your service is not covered by the cap, may like to know they can often be found on bustimes by adding "/fares" to the end of the timetable page. (e.g. https://bustimes.org/services/101-maidstone-gillingham becomes https://bustimes.org/services/101-maidstone-gillingham/fares).

It does depend on the faretable being called the same (I did run into issues when attempting to track down Transdev 840s fares, but that was because it was coded slightly differently as 1840, for whatever internal reason), and that the company has continued to upload shadow fares, but to take the service I quoted above, for example, I can see that the "actual" single fare between Maidstone and Gillingham is £6, but £2 capped - so £3 will still be a significant saving, as indeed it will for a good portion of Arriva Kent's fares.

Indeed, sadly, for us, £2 seems to have become rather less a flat fare, but the minimum fare band even in normal conditions, aside from some very short hops.

 

[RT4038]

So by your own admission they didn't put up fares that were less than £2 up to £2 when the cap came in. So why do you think they will put up any fares that would be between £2 and £3 up to £3 under the new cap?

Possibly because they have found how convenient, how powerful a marketing tool, it is to have one flat fare ?

 

[mangad]

Those of you seeking to know the "shadow fares", or indeed any fares at all if your service is not covered by the cap, may like to know they can often be found on bustimes by adding "/fares" to the end of the timetable page. (e.g. https://bustimes.org/services/101-maidstone-gillingham becomes https://bustimes.org/services/101-maidstone-gillingham/fares).

It does depend on the faretable being called the same (I did run into issues when attempting to track down Transdev 840s fares, but that was because it was coded slightly differently as 1840, for whatever internal reason), and that the company has continued to upload shadow fares, but to take the service I quoted above, for example, I can see that the "actual" single fare between Maidstone and Gillingham is £6, but £2 capped - so £3 will still be a significant saving, as indeed it will for a good portion of Arriva Kent's fares.

Thanks. That's really interesting to know about - I always find it frustrating that operators don't always publish their data in a publicly readable format.

Alas seems Stagecoach's data seems to not be understandable by bustimes.org (e.g. https://bustimes.org/services/237-manchesterashton-glossop-2/fares) but have found a very small number of sub-£2 fares floating around for very short journeys!

 

[AM9]

Those of you seeking to know the "shadow fares", or indeed any fares at all if your service is not covered by the cap, may like to know they can often be found on bustimes by adding "/fares" to the end of the timetable page. (e.g. https://bustimes.org/services/101-maidstone-gillingham becomes https://bustimes.org/services/101-maidstone-gillingham/fares).

It does depend on the faretable being called the same (I did run into issues when attempting to track down Transdev 840s fares, but that was because it was coded slightly differently as 1840, for whatever internal reason), and that the company has continued to upload shadow fares, but to take the service I quoted above, for example, I can see that the "actual" single fare between Maidstone and Gillingham is £6, but £2 capped - so £3 will still be a significant saving, as indeed it will for a good portion of Arriva Kent's fares.

Indeed, sadly, for us, £2 seems to have become rather less a flat fare, but the minimum fare band even in normal conditions, aside from some very short hops.

Thanks for that, - really useful. Just looked up the fares for the Arriva 721 service Luton to Hemel Hempstead. Credibility problem with the date validity of the fare table:

"Wednesday 23 October 2024–Monday 23 October 2124".​

Wow, that's some commitment!

 

[Statto]

Feel like the cap rise could have been done in 2 stages, raise the cap first to £2.50 until June, then to £3, rather than to £3 straight away

 

[Deerfold]

Thanks for that, - really useful. Just looked up the fares for the Arriva 721 service Luton to Hemel Hempstead. Credibility problem with the date validity of the fare table:

"Wednesday 23 October 2024–Monday 23 October 2124".​

Wow, that's some commitment!

A lot of the Transdev Data is 2023-2123 but seems very bitty and out of date, with a lot of it just showing the £2 fare.

 

[Teapot42]

As noted, Stagecoach fares don't seem accessible this way which is a shame.

I checked one Hulleys route and the fare tables are extremely detailed - makes you wonder how a small operator keeps on top of it all:

Fares – 170 - Bakewell - Chesterfield – bustimes.org

bustimes.org

One thing I do wonder, some of our services have been re-registered in the meanwhile. Same (or very similar) routes and times, but with tweaks like service numbers or splitting the registration.

Could this be a way around hiking shadow fares?

 

[SteveM70]

Thanks for that, - really useful. Just looked up the fares for the Arriva 721 service Luton to Hemel Hempstead. Credibility problem with the date validity of the fare table:

"Wednesday 23 October 2024–Monday 23 October 2124".​

Wow, that's some commitment!

Lots of systems require end dates even though the pricing isn’t a promotion and is effectively open-ended. I’m surprised it’s not been entered as 9999

 

[WibbleWobble]

Lots of systems require end dates even though the pricing isn’t a promotion and is effectively open-ended. I’m surprised it’s not been entered as 9999

Could be auto-generated by whatever system, if the operator has left tge dnd date field blank.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Now the dust has settled on the budget I'm mystified why the only two choices re fuel duty were to either keep it down or add 5p per litre. Could the government not have introduced a much smaller fuel duty rise of 1 or 2p per litre and announced it would go directly to maintaining the £2 bus fare cap as well as subsidising rural bus routes? Surely that would have kept everyone happy?

 

[Richard Scott]

Now the dust has settled on the budget I'm mystified why the only two choices re fuel duty were to either keep it down or add 5p per litre. Could the government not have introduced a much smaller fuel duty rise of 1 or 2p per litre and announced it would go directly to maintaining the £2 bus fare cap as well as subsidising rural bus routes? Surely that would have kept everyone happy?

Can't see why not, fuel prices fluctuate regularly anyway so surely a small addition would have been sensible.

 

[cactustwirly]

I'm one who switched to buses due to the £2 price cap.

Now that the fare is to be raised to £3, I will no longer be using the bus as often (when this increase occurs). Some routes just aren't worth £3 - or more.

Here in Reading, Reading Buses recently increased the price of an all day ticket to £4.50 on board, £4 if bought on app (up from £3.50 on board - £3.40 if bought on the app).

They have also failed to reinstate the reduced evening fare price, that used to be in operation after 6pm. Encouraging people to use the bus at quieter times in the evening.

What we will now see is buses running emptier in the evenings. Something of something fare wise, is better than nothing of nothing.

In addition the 4/x4 route between Reading and Bracknell will become uncompetitive off peak.

A £6 flat fare return to anywhere outside the Simply Reading zone, between Winnersh and Bracknell.

Compared to £5.20 (Reading to Bracknell), £4.20 (Reading to Wokingham) on SWR, using an Evening Out during the week. Falling to £3.45 (Reading to Bracknell), £2.75 (Reading to Wokingham) on a Saturday afternoon, and Sunday - or for anyone with a national railcard, any day of the week.

I remember getting the 4 before the cap and the fares were ridiculous. I think it was £9 return or something. It's such a slow route too.

I hope they keep the £2 fares in Reading, any more then you'd may as well drive

 

[yorksrob]

Now the dust has settled on the budget I'm mystified why the only two choices re fuel duty were to either keep it down or add 5p per litre. Could the government not have introduced a much smaller fuel duty rise of 1 or 2p per litre and announced it would go directly to maintaining the £2 bus fare cap as well as subsidising rural bus routes? Surely that would have kept everyone happy?

Indeed. Would have made sense to me !

 

[cactustwirly]

Are you for real?

I don't know the exact route the X40 takes, but you're looking at a round trip of over 50 miles (source - Google maps); do you really expect to do this for £4 there and back? If so, you really need to get a grip. My 7-mile single fare is just short of £6 and a day ticket just short of £8; I still consider my day ticket price to be quite good value if I'm going across town or making an additional journey within the relevant zone.

Your fares are still a damn sight cheaper than they would have been whether or not the cap is £2 or a £3, so if I were you I'd stop complaining - £3 each way for such a journey is an absolute bargain and you're lucky to have the fare cap. People in other parts of the UK aren't quite so lucky and we don't all have the luxury of having a rail alternative if we fancy a quicker journey.

It's reasonable for a slow bus to be cheaper than rail is it not? Where is the incentive otherwise?

 

[Deerfold]

It's reasonable for a slow bus to be cheaper than rail is it not? Where is the incentive otherwise?

The cheapest return by train is £12. Even with the higher cap, the bus will be half that.

 

[class17]

Now the dust has settled on the budget I'm mystified why the only two choices re fuel duty were to either keep it down or add 5p per litre. Could the government not have introduced a much smaller fuel duty rise of 1 or 2p per litre and announced it would go directly to maintaining the £2 bus fare cap as well as subsidising rural bus routes? Surely that would have kept everyone happy?

Agreed, or say the 5p cut is being restored, something like 2p this year, 2p next year and 1p the following year.
But I guess they feared backlash from the motoring lobby.

 

[GusB]

It's reasonable for a slow bus to be cheaper than rail is it not? Where is the incentive otherwise?

Of course it's reasonable for a slow bus to be cheaper than rail, but £6 is still very good value for the distance covered. @Deerfold has pointed out that the cheapest rail return between Reading and Oxford is £12, so there is an incentive to take the bus for those who are price-sensitive. Whether the capped fare is £4 or £6, it still offers excellent value per mile. As a matter of interest, is anyone able to advise how much the same journey on the X40 cost before the £2 cap was introduced?

Let's compare it to a similar, albeit slightly longer, journey in my neck of the woods. Elgin to Huntly is a round trip of 55.6 miles by road according to Google Maps and stagecoachbus.com quotes £18.30 as the cheapest way to get there and back on the same day. Between those two points I'd actually be cheaper getting an off-peak rail return at £15.50. Either way, it's still significantly more per mile than the fare would be under the cap.

The fare cap was a good idea to get people out and about after the pandemic. If it incentivised some people to take the bus over other modes, it is to be applauded; if some of those people were convinced to stick with the bus, so much the better. However, maintaining the cap at £2 is unsustainable in the long run; it simply does not reflect the true cost of longer-distance journeys - nor does £3 in many cases. I don't begrudge anyone the opportunity to take a trip on a nice scenic bus route for the cost of a cup of coffee, but we have to accept that the cap was only going to be a temporary measure.

People need to consider how much their fare was before the cap, how much it would cost now if fare increases had followed their natural course and whether or not the cap makes them better or worse off compared to those fares.

 

[yorkie]

Does anyone know what's going to happen with providers such as First York, who provides local services, which were ridiculously overpriced before the £2 cap?

I rarely use the bus, but knowing the fare was only £2, it is as an option I would occasionally consider, however if fares go up to £3 it would make me more reluctant to use them.

Even at £2, I would usually rather walk for a journey I could walk in less than half an hour.

 

[Eyersey468]

Does anyone know what's going to happen with providers such as First York, who provides local services, which were ridiculously overpriced before the £2 cap?

I rarely use the bus, but knowing the fare was only £2, it is as an option I would occasionally consider, however if fares go up to £3 it would make me more reluctant to use them.

Even at £2, I would usually rather walk for a journey I could walk in less than half an hour.

The scheme is opt in for the bus operators, I'd imagine the operators that are part of the £2 cap will stay in it when it rises to £3, I know we are currently in negotiations over the funding of it and expect the others will be as well. My guess is fares that were more than £2 but less than £3 will go back to that with a possible rise to allow for inflation

 

[JKP]

Now the dust has settled on the budget I'm mystified why the only two choices re fuel duty were to either keep it down or add 5p per litre. Could the government not have introduced a much smaller fuel duty rise of 1 or 2p per litre and announced it would go directly to maintaining the £2 bus fare cap as well as subsidising rural bus routes? Surely that would have kept everyone happy?

I can think of a good reason. Why should we in Scotland and Wales be presented with higher fuel prices to maintain very low fares on English bus services?

 

[johncrossley]

I can think of a good reason. Why should we in Scotland and Wales be presented with higher fuel prices to maintain very low fares on English bus services?

Where you have devolution, inevitably there are going to be differences where different choices are made by the relevant governments. I could similarly argue why do I have to pay for eye tests and prescriptions when they are free in Scotland. The Scottish government have decided to fund those instead of bus services. If I was in Scotland I would be angry with the government for continuing to force deregulation on its people, with unregulated fares as a consequence.

Scotland has had the opportunity to remove deregulation for more than 20 years.

 

[Porty]

I can think of a good reason. Why should we in Scotland and Wales be presented with higher fuel prices to maintain very low fares on English bus services?

But Scotland and Wales would get a proportionate share of the English bus funding under the Barnett formula for the relevant governments to spend on what it wished - buses or something else.

 

[stevieinselby]

Does anyone know what's going to happen with providers such as First York, who provides local services, which were ridiculously overpriced before the £2 cap?

I rarely use the bus, but knowing the fare was only £2, it is as an option I would occasionally consider, however if fares go up to £3 it would make me more reluctant to use them.

Even at £2, I would usually rather walk for a journey I could walk in less than half an hour.

First York currently have a maximum single "shadow" fare of £2.60 – that's the uncapped fare, which is used for calculating grant funding, and is based on the pre-cap fares (plus an allowance for inflation, if the operator chooses to use it), so on that basis I would expect their fares to remain below the £3 cap.

York also has an all-operator day ticket that costs £4.80, so for anyone making a return or multi-leg journey that will act as a cap even if the single fares are increased to the £3 limit then that will keep the effective fare lower than that for most people.

 

[busman2000]

oh right ok fair enough . i live in an area where all the buses are arriva blue or stagechoach white used to be crosville green all over the place. one knew where they stood then

 

[1D54]

Just purchased a load advance purchase rail tickets to get me to work from 2/1 and paid £11 per week for returns. A hell of a lot better than the £30 Arriva would be charging me so very happy indeed

 

[Deerfold]

Just purchased a load advance purchase rail tickets to get me to work from 2/1 and paid £11 per week for returns. A hell of a lot better than the £30 Arriva would be charging me so very happy indeed

Where is a weekly Arriva ticket £30?

 

[1D54]

Where is a weekly Arriva ticket £30?

No mention of an Arriva weekly. I'd be paying £3 a time for ten singles.