Will Labour scrap the £2 fare Cap? (now confirmed will rise to £3)

[Ghostbus]

I don't know which fares were available before the £2 cap or the NE Combined Authority day ticket (£6.80 for Tyne and Wear including the Metro, from memory?) but I wonder if a ticket from Cramlington or Durham to Newcastle with PlusBus would have worked out cheaper than two singles, especially with a railcard and if you could get a short-distance advance ticket.

Trainline says that with as little as 1 hour advance booking, you can get a day return to Newcastle for as little as £4.70. Most fares are £5 to £6, but if you absolutely have to take a specific train/s, you're not paying more than £6.30.

Arriva will only charge you £6.50 for a Cramlington Routesaver which offers unlimited trips on their buses, meaning you can catch a local bus into Cramlington and then an express into Newcastle.

So now the subsidized £3 bus fare (£6 return) looks like incredibly poor value against both the train and the day tickets of the monopoly bus provider. Two buses each way is a whopping £5.50 more expensive than a day ticket. Walking or cycling to Cramlington station save you £1.30 every trip, and you're quite likely to do that ironically due to the cuts to subsidised local Cramlington services, a situation that would be far worse if Arriva wasn't able to serve a lot of that traffic with their monopoly express buses as they pass through an route to the depths of Northumberland proper.

And while not exactly remote or even that rural, nobody in their right mind would say Cramlington was part of the urban realm with Newcastle at its heart. It is a town surrounded by fields. The A19 also quite literally separates it from the city region. You certainly aren't walking to Newcastle. You'd think twice about cycling it, if there even is a safe route.

This astonishing lack of inducement to travel is ironically presumably because there is competition between train and bus on this corridor. Incredibly, it would be even less attractive if there was bus competition, but such a situation is unlikely to develop precisely because the market and service reliability hasn't recovered post-Covid. The exact thing the subsidized fare was brought in to rectify.

Anyone who has a car, would drive. In off peak city traffic, Google says the journey is only 24 minutes, easily beating the end to end time of the bus and train. And you can apparently get 4 hours parking in a 400 capacity city centre car park for as little as £5.60.

It's grim up there. They've been losing hundreds of industrial jobs as a result of energy policy under governments of both stripes. This was in 2006, the supposed zenith of New Labour......

Iron foundry closes

An iron foundry which had been part of the North East for almost 30 years has shut its doors for the final time with the loss of 157 jobs.

www.chroniclelive.co.uk

An iron foundry which had been part of the North East for almost 30 years has shut its doors for the final time with the loss of 157 jobs.

Vald Birn UK, in Cambois, Northumberland, closed yesterday in the face of soaring energy costs and cheap foreign competition.

Cramlington presumably housed a fair few of those workers, being only a short car/bus ride from Cambois.

Not hard to see why hard working people feel like they're not just being left behind, but having the absolute mick taken.

 

[The exile]

Trainline says that with as little as 1 hour advance booking, you can get a day return to Newcastle for as little as £4.70. Most fares are £5 to £6, but if you absolutely have to take a specific train/s, you're not paying more than £6.30.

Arriva will only charge you £6.50 for a Cramlington Routesaver which offers unlimited trips on their buses, meaning you can catch a local bus into Cramlington and then an express into Newcastle.

So now the subsidized £3 bus fare (£6 return) looks like incredibly poor value against both the train and the day tickets of the monopoly bus provider. Two buses each way is a whopping £5.50 more expensive than a day ticket.

Sounds about right (if slightly on the low side) for the pricing point of a day ticket - just a bit more than a return journey, based on the premise that one journey each way is likely to be in the peak and any other journeys are helping to fill up otherwise lightly loaded buses.

 

[WelshBluebird]

So now the subsidized £3 bus fare (£6 return) looks like incredibly poor value against both the train and the day tickets of the monopoly bus provider. Two buses each way is a whopping £5.50 more expensive than a day ticket

Surely tap on and capping systems are the solution to that? Tapping on charges the single fare, but you have a cap at the day ticket price. Like exists in lots of places already.

 

[Deerfold]

Surely tap on and capping systems are the solution to that? Tapping on charges the single fare, but you have a cap at the day ticket price. Like exists in lots of places already.

Now you just need to organise that between different operators.

Even within West Yorkshire that's taking years. Catch a bus to outside the county and that's not even planned.

 

[TUC]

Reversing the emergency 5p fuel duty cut from 2022 should be a no brainer for Reeves and the money raised should goto DfT to support modal shift. She should also state that fuel duty escalator should be bought back and again used to support modal shift and transition to EV's.

This would disproportionately affect people on lower incomes with older cars, particularly in rural areas.

 

[Oxfordblues]

The BBC initially reported that the increase was "a third", presumably because the extra £1 is indeed a third of the new maximum of £3. The numerically semi-literate reporter should of course have said the increase was 50%, significantly more than a third.

 

[Ghostbus]

Sounds about right (if slightly on the low side) for the pricing point of a day ticket - just a bit more than a return journey, based on the premise that one journey each way is likely to be in the peak and any other journeys are helping to fill up otherwise lightly loaded buses.

It's two journeys each way. They do the same for Morpeth too, for £6.70. Clearly it is due to the presence of the railway.

In a similar vein, for £6.80 you can travel all day on any mode in Northumberland, Tyne and Wear and Country Durham......except the railways (although it does include Northern's Blaydon to Sunderland line!)

 

[Mark J]

The cheapest return by train is £12. Even with the higher cap, the bus will be half that.

If you have a national railcard, or a Network Railcard (at the weekend and bank holidays) then Reading to Oxford is £7.95 return.

If the x40 goes up to £3 each way - £6 return - although cheaper than the train, is still highly competitive time wise. The journey is essentially 1½ hours each way. The train journey can be under 25 minutes.

Most people when faced with time over cost, will consider time the more important factor. If priced properly, then time becomes a less important factor.

I've taken the x40 many times due to the current fare. When it increases, less likely to do so. For a pound, or so more, I can get to Oxford in under a third of the time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Most people when faced with time over cost, will consider time the more important factor. If priced properly, then time becomes a less important factor.

I think there are limits to that. There will be people who value price over everything (I'd probably put most Flixbus customers in that bracket) but three times the time will put most people off even if it's free.

 

[Mark J]

Of course it's reasonable for a slow bus to be cheaper than rail, but £6 is still very good value for the distance covered. @Deerfold has pointed out that the cheapest rail return between Reading and Oxford is £12, so there is an incentive to take the bus for those who are price-sensitive. Whether the capped fare is £4 or £6, it still offers excellent value per mile. As a matter of interest, is anyone able to advise how much the same journey on the X40 cost before the £2 cap was introduced?

As I've stated above, the journey can be done by train for £7.95.

The X40 pricing (pre fares capping) although cheaper, was largely uncompetitive compared to the train. Especially factoring in the extra hour journey time.

The image attached shows the pricing of Thames Travel services in 2021.

What you have to remember is the Railcard price in 2021 was £6.85 return.

So was only an 85p difference.

In addition who do you think you are to tell me to 'stop complaining' in a previous post. I am not abusive towards other forum members and make what I feel are valid points. Therefore free to complain about what I like. Whether you like it, or not.

Just because you think the fare cap going up to £3 is acceptable to you, not everyone agrees.

 

[Mikey C]

If you have a national railcard, or a Network Railcard (at the weekend and bank holidays) then Reading to Oxford is £7.95 return.

If the x40 goes up to £3 each way - £6 return - although cheaper than the train, is still highly competitive time wise. The journey is essentially 1½ hours each way. The train journey can be under 25 minutes.

Most people when faced with time over cost, will consider time the more important factor. If priced properly, then time becomes a less important factor.

I've taken the x40 many times due to the current fare. When it increases, less likely to do so. For a pound, or so more, I can get to Oxford in under a third of the time.

Most people won't use the X40 end to end though, unless very price sensitive (or with free bus passes).

However if you're accessing intermediate destinations, or travelling from south Oxford or north Reading, it becomes more competitive.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Stagecoach has welcomed the "clarity" the raise will provide, specifically for their Hull operations:

A spokesperson from the operator told LDRS: “We acknowledge the government’s announcement of a new £3 bus fare cap and welcome the clarity it provides.“We look forward to working with the Government to understand the details of the new scheme in the coming days and weeks. Our goal remains to provide reliable and affordable transport options that benefit our communities.”

Hull and East Yorkshire Stagecoach ‘welcomes clarity’ of £3 bus fair cap announcement in Rachel Reeves’ budget

Bus operator Stagecoach has issued a statement on the recently-announced £3 bus fare cap saying it “welcomes the clarity it provides”.

www.yorkshirepost.co.uk

Understandable, without the cap (whether it be £2 or £3) Stagecoach (and other operators) would have a limited amount of time to calculate all of their fares and factor in inflation since the £2 cap was introduced.

 

[Deerfold]

If you have a national railcard, or a Network Railcard (at the weekend and bank holidays) then Reading to Oxford is £7.95 return.

If the x40 goes up to £3 each way - £6 return - although cheaper than the train, is still highly competitive time wise. The journey is essentially 1½ hours each way. The train journey can be under 25 minutes.

Most people when faced with time over cost, will consider time the more important factor. If priced properly, then time becomes a less important factor.

I've taken the x40 many times due to the current fare. When it increases, less likely to do so. For a pound, or so more, I can get to Oxford in under a third of the time.

And at peak times (pre 0900) it's substantially more than that. Or if you're returning on a different day.

 

[Starmill]

This would disproportionately affect people on lower incomes with older cars, particularly in rural areas.

So does slashing the real subsidy paid to the bus industry though.

 

[Non Multi]

If you have a national railcard, or a Network Railcard (at the weekend and bank holidays) then Reading to Oxford is £7.95 return.

If the x40 goes up to £3 each way - £6 return - although cheaper than the train, is still highly competitive time wise. The journey is essentially 1½ hours each way. The train journey can be under 25 minutes.

Most people when faced with time over cost, will consider time the more important factor. If priced properly, then time becomes a less important factor.

I've taken the x40 many times due to the current fare. When it increases, less likely to do so. For a pound, or so more, I can get to Oxford in under a third of the time.

Fifty pence more buys you the 'My Bus Oxfordshire' adult day ticket - it's much better value than two 2025 £3 singles. https://www.mybusoxfordshire.org.uk/mybus-oxfordshire-tickets. It's valid for the full X40 route.

 

[joieman]

Fifty pence more buys you the 'My Bus Oxfordshire' adult day ticket - it's much better value than two 2025 £3 singles. https://www.mybusoxfordshire.org.uk/mybus-oxfordshire-tickets. It's valid for the full X40 route.

Fifty pence more as in £6.50?

 

[Non Multi]

Fifty pence more as in £6.50?

Yes, the 'My Bus Oxfordshire' adult day ticket is £6.50.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Metro Mayor Steve Rotheram has confirmed that fares in the Liverpool and Merseyside region will remain capped at £2 until September 2025:

Single bus fares across the Liverpool city region will be capped at £2 despite a national rise, mayor Steve Rotheram has confirmed.

The metropolitan mayor said he was extending the cap until September 2025 but did not rule out possible increases afterwards.

He said saving the cap demonstrated "the power of devolution".

Rotheram goes onto say:

Rotheram said the cap was part of wider efforts to make clean, sustainable travel more accessible, tackle congestion, and "make the Liverpool city region net zero carbon by 2035".

“Affordable and reliable bus services are key to ensuring that everyone, no matter their income or background, can get to work, access education, or simply enjoy all that our region has to offer," he said.

"It gives us the freedom to take bold action, ensuring that the decisions we make are directly driven by the needs and priorities of the people who live here."

Liverpool city region bus fare cap to stay at £2, mayor confirms

Liverpool city region’s £2 bus fare cap is to be extended until at least September 2025.

www.bbc.co.uk

Some very positive news, he follows Andy Burnham with this decision.

 

[greyman42]

Is it really unsustainable though? I don't think keeping the £2 bus cap would cause the economy to collapse, and are there other things that the government could cut that would impact less people?

If it was the Conservatives raising it to £3 there would of been hell to pay.

 

[GusB]

If it was the Conservatives raising it to £3 there would of been hell to pay.

There would have been hell to pay regardless of the colour of government that implemented the change! It was the Conservative party that set the end date for the scheme and there was no guarantee that funding for the £2 cap would be continued. It just so happened that a Labour government was in power when that date arrived. We simply don't know what the Tories would have done if they'd remained in power; they could have renewed the £2 cap, increased it or decided that it should be scrapped completely.

A cap of £3 is still better than no cap at all and some people will still be able to cover some fairly hefty mileage for not an awful lot of money.

 

[1D54]

Wish the previous government had extended it by at least two years prior to the dissolving of the last parliament. Oh well, too late now!

 

[JamesT]

There would have been hell to pay regardless of the colour of government that implemented the change! It was the Conservative party that set the end date for the scheme and there was no guarantee that funding for the £2 cap would be continued. It just so happened that a Labour government was in power when that date arrived. We simply don't know what the Tories would have done if they'd remained in power; they could have renewed the £2 cap, increased it or decided that it should be scrapped completely.

A cap of £3 is still better than no cap at all and some people will still be able to cover some fairly hefty mileage for not an awful lot of money.

As noted by a previous poster, it was in the Conservative manifesto that the £2 cap would have been extended for the entirety of this parliament.

 

[PGAT]

As noted by a previous poster, it was in the Conservative manifesto that the £2 cap would have been extended for the entirety of this parliament.

The cynic in me thinks that they wouldn’t have done this if they knew they would have a shot of winning

 

[PeterC]

The cynic in me thinks that they wouldn’t have done this if they knew they would have a shot of winning

You aren't the only cynic.

 

[duncombec]

The cynic in me thinks that they wouldn’t have done this if they knew they would have a shot of winning

Not only that, but has everyone already forgotten it was the Conservative plan to have it at £3 by this time anyway, had they not found money down the back of the HS2 sofa? (Which they may not have actually found at all!)

 

[stevieinselby]

As noted by a previous poster, it was in the Conservative manifesto that the £2 cap would have been extended for the entirety of this parliament.

The Tories' track record on reneging on their manifesto spending promises within hours of winning an election is relevant...

 

[Ghostbus]

The Tories' track record on reneging on their manifesto spending promises within hours of winning an election is relevant...

It's easy to say this, harder to defend it.

We're taking about a proposed scenario where an incredibly weak leader making a paltry £350 manifesto commitment to sustain an already wildly popular measure that benefits the less well off and small businesses in a policy area where the Tories were doing well with left behind voters (Corbyn is furious about this rise) presumably wins an election by a tiny margin, and then breaks this commitment on day one.

Under what scenario does he believe the benefits of breaking it outweigh the risks?

Labour are claiming complete and total economic collapse and imminent danger to life due to our broken public services, and yet even they seem to think it's not worth the blowback from rural and market town voters to try and claw back the whole "unfunded" £350 million.

 

[Mikey C]

If it was the Conservatives raising it to £3 there would of been hell to pay.

Indeed. I can imagine The Guardian/Mirror headlines about heartless Tories penalising poor people and screwing the environment by making bus travel 50% more expensive, while freezing fuel duty for motorists

I've often thought that if it had been a Labour London mayor, introducing "New Routemasters" with an extra crew member, and a Tory mayor had axed the second person, the left and unions would have slaughtered them in public.

 

[TUC]

I recognise that the funding arrangements are different, but Londoners continuing to pay £1.75 for bus journeys whilst the rest of the country's fares rise from £2 to £3 is not a good look.

 

[johncrossley]

I recognise that the funding arrangements are different, but Londoners continuing to pay £1.75 for bus journeys whilst the rest of the country's fares rise from £2 to £3 is not a good look.

Yet again, I have to say, that London has amongst the most expensive public transport fares in the world, if not the most expensive. The cheap bus only fare is a distraction.