Will Labour scrap the £2 fare Cap? (now confirmed will rise to £3)

[Man of Kent]

London manages to get by without these exceptions.

In part because, according to DfT statistics, London had for many years received approximately 60% of all public funding for buses in England.
https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...dustry-and-concessionary-travel-england-bus05 (which leads to several massive tables, so cannot be reproduced here).

 

[johncrossley]

In part because, according to DfT statistics, London had for many years received approximately 60% of all public funding for buses in England.
https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...dustry-and-concessionary-travel-england-bus05 (which leads to several massive tables, so cannot be reproduced here).

This is a policy, not a funding issue. London buses require a separate card per passenger, so don't allow two people to travel on the same card. To allow someone to pay for multiple passengers on the same card requires the driver to sell tickets, which TfL have decided they no longer want to do. Similarly kids require their own card. Kids have free travel on buses (but not tubes) in London, but that is not relevant to the issue. If London didn't have free travel for kids, they would still need their own card.

 

[Teapot42]

Are you sure? For a single journey to be £4, you're assuming that "the vast majority" of passengers changes at least once. I'm not sure that's true - Fairly certain it's not for "within" an urban area here. And two journeys with changes (i.e. 4 journeys) already brings you over the day ticket price.

I think it will vary based on the reason for the journey. If your destination is central to the town or city you are going to and / or you are prepared to walk up to 15 minutes then it's rare to need to change. However not many work places are in the centre of cities these days, not many cities are pleasant to walk through at 7am, and not everyone can lug heavy bags that far.

Part of the reason I don't use the bus much is the need to change and the corresponding cost and inconvenience. OT, but much of the inconvenience is poor connections leading to much extended journey times, but cost is still a factor even if the connections are seamless. This is why I think the London system needs rolling out country-wide where there is either no or just a small extra charge where you connect to a second bus within a certain time period.

With reference to an possible national Oyster style system, work is already in progress on a nationwide tap and cap ticketing system for buses. Project Coral, instigated by Midlands Connect, has support of all the main bus groups, most Local Transport Authorities and is funded by the DfT. There is also involvement from the various payment system providers.

When I first went to Taiwan, over a decade ago now, I was very taken with their Easycard system. Valid on the majority of public transport nationwide(1), aside from long distance rail and HSR (2) and can be topped up, and more importantly the credit used, at the numerous 7-11, FamilyMart etc type corner shops. Different card types were available for children, students, pensioners etc so the system knew what fares to charge. Made getting around really cheap and easy (3), and made me wonder why we didn't have something similar in the UK.

The fact I'm still wondering 12+ years later must say something about this country.

The card is now available as an app as well, although I believe you can only register if you are a Taiwanese national. Japan has similar, although there are two or three competing ones rather than a single universal card.

(1) - With no apologies to the CCP
(2) - I believe it now can be used to buy tickets on both rail and HSR, but you still need a ticket for HSR.
(3) - Aside from the buses where they have a complicated system of whether you tap when getting on or getting off (or both) which changes part-way through longer routes, and where the sign telling you which to do is only in Mandarin.

 

[johntea]

If you use the MCard app in West Yorkshire the £2 single ticket will work for the 30 minute limit after activation on as many buses as you want

I did try the same on the Transdev app once but that does seem to ‘mark’ the ticket as used as soon as you scan it and only has a 15 minute timer anyway

 

[blueberry11]

I think its also to say that contactless (as a form of payment, rather than tap and go) was only around since like 2017 (2014 in London). It's only recent that buses started accepting a new form of payment and that most passengers have switched to using that form of payment. It's already difficult knowing the price of the journey to a destination I haven't been to, and even more so when it changes. The £2 fare makes it easier. I see why some bus operators operate on an exact change basis especially now that most passengers use contactless, an ENTCS card or on an app. It's also that bus inspectors outside London were rare until some places, including Norwich have (re)introduced them recently

Regarding children, they sometimes use one of their parents' contactless card, but at the expense of being charged the full adult fare. This can be overcome by introducing a smartcard system, such as London's Zip Oyster card. Or even better, it is free to use public transport for those under 21 in Scotland.

 

[johncrossley]

I think its also to say that contactless (as a form of payment, rather than tap and go) was only around since like 2017 (2014 in London).

"Only" 7 years ago! The public sector is often criticised for being slow to modernise, but in this case TfL were prepared to take the risk to go cashless less than 2 years after contactless was rolled out to buses in December 2012, and arguably they were borderline reckless to go that early. But the risk paid off and TfL and their passengers enjoyed the benefit of faster boarding at an early stage. TfL no longer had to bank cash and drivers no longer needed to worry about being robbed.

By contrast, the deregulated bus companies have been ultra conservative, refusing to surcharge cash, and many operators still don't operate Tap and Cap.

Regarding children, they sometimes use one of their parents' contactless card, but at the expense of being charged the full adult fare. This can be overcome by introducing a smartcard system, such as London's Zip Oyster card. Or even better, it is free to use public transport for those under 21 in Scotland.

The free travel for under 22s in Scotland still requires a smartcard, although it is implemented in a tedious manner by having to tell the driver the destination, unless the operator has a flat fare like Lothian's urban routes.

 

[WelshBluebird]

London manages to get by without these exceptions.

By not having a student or child price. Not sure thet should be replicated nationwide really.

This is a policy, not a funding issue. London buses require a separate card per passenger, so don't allow two people to travel on the same card. To allow someone to pay for multiple passengers on the same card requires the driver to sell tickets, which TfL have decided they no longer want to do.

The issue with not selling tickets isn't just each person needs their own card, but also you can't offer discounted fares. You either have to give them a card to travel for free or make them pay full adult price. No child or student tickets.

Similarly kids require their own card. Kids have free travel on buses (but not tubes) in London, but that is not relevant to the issue. If London didn't have free travel for kids, they would still need their own card.

Kids who do not live in London do not get free travel. Everywhere else in the UK there is a child fare available to anyone of the right age.

 

[ChrisC]

I think it will vary based on the reason for the journey. If your destination is central to the town or city you are going to and / or you are prepared to walk up to 15 minutes then it's rare to need to change. However not many work places are in the centre of cities these days, not many cities are pleasant to walk through at 7am, and not everyone can lug heavy bags that far.

Part of the reason I don't use the bus much is the need to change and the corresponding cost and inconvenience. OT, but much of the inconvenience is poor connections leading to much extended journey times, but cost is still a factor even if the connections are seamless. This is why I think the London system needs rolling out country-wide where there is either no or just a small extra charge where you connect to a second bus within a certain time period.

If the London system were to be rolled out across the country, in many areas, outside of the large cities, it would need to work over more than one operator. There are still so many parts of the country where even multi operator day tickets or multi operator daily caps are not available. Just to use one example based on fares before the £2 cap. From my house to visit my dentist it is a journey of around 6 miles and requires one change of bus. As for many journeys in Nottinghamshire, where there are no multi operator tickets, I would need to use both a Stagecoach and a Trent Barton bus to complete the journey. That was £2.40 for the first 2 miles of the journey with Stagecoach and then £3.80 for the next 4 miles with Trent Barton. That’s £12 in total fares for a return journey. In London the journey would not cost any more than £1.75 each way. Incidentally I would quite often walk the shorter 2 mile section of the journey. I have reached the age of getting my ENCTS pass since the £2 fare cap was introduced.

 

[londonteacher]

If the £2 fare is scrapped then it is possible to purchase singles now in bus company apps such as Arriva and stock up. I did that with monthly passes before they went up and they work absolutely fine a year later.

 

[PeterC]

Except child / student etc fares, or cases where somebody is paying for another passenger (e.g a partner etc).

Not a problem in London

 

[blueberry11]

TfL were prepared to take the risk to go cashless less than 2 years after contactless was rolled out to buses in December 2012

I thought they were rolled out in London in 2014? That's what I heard. Or that's when it was rolled out on the tube.

The free travel for under 22s in Scotland still requires a smartcard, although it is implemented in a tedious manner by having to tell the driver the destination, unless the operator has a flat fare like Lothian's urban routes.

So it's not like just tapping your smartcard (or showing it to the driver)? I thought that's the case since at least in Norwich (where I live), passengers with a concessionary pass are able to simply tap and go, without having to speak to the driver (except to say 'thank you' afterwards), which is the case in London.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Not a problem in London

As I've said in another reply, only because:
1 - children living in London get free travel. This is great but good luck doing that nationwide.
2 - It's been accepted that children from outside London have to pay adult fares. I so not think this is acceptable nationwide.
3 - It's been accepted that there are no other student or young person fares available. Again I think this is a bad idea.

 

[joieman]

To me it seems more of an urban v rural split rather than north v south. I suspect say Manchester will be more card use heavy than rural Devon for example.

Probably due to a general lack of multi-operator tickets/bus passes outside the cities.

 

[johncrossley]

By not having a student or child price. Not sure thet should be replicated nationwide really.

The issue with not selling tickets isn't just each person needs their own card, but also you can't offer discounted fares. You either have to give them a card to travel for free or make them pay full adult price. No child or student tickets.

Kids who do not live in London do not get free travel. Everywhere else in the UK there is a child fare available to anyone of the right age.

London has child fares (for the tube) and student fares (for TfL services generally). TfL also has discounts for veterans, care leavers aged 18-25, apprentices and for job seekers. Therefore London has plenty of categories of discounted fare.

Kids outside London can get free travel in London if they apply for it and pay the administration fee (either £10 or £15 depending on age).

Child fares in other parts of the UK vary and are not always automatically available. For example, child fares in Greater Manchester are only available to those with an "Igo" card, which costs £10 per year.

 

[JKP]

As I've said in another reply, only because:
1 - children living in London get free travel. This is great but good luck doing that nationwide.
2 - It's been accepted that children from outside London have to pay adult fares. I so not think this is acceptable nationwide.
3 - It's been accepted that there are no other student or young person fares available. Again I think this is a bad idea.

As has already been said, under 22s are eligible for free travel in Scotland.

 

[joieman]

Obviously people are discouraged from changing due to the fare system. But obviously within an urban area with a typical hub and spoke network, if you are going anywhere other than the town centre or on the direct bus route to the town centre, you will need to change buses. So whilst buses are typically used for bus trips to the town centre, for *potential* single journeys (which is what I said earlier) within an urban area you will more than likely need to change buses. For example, if there are 100 bus stops in an urban area and you can only reach 10 other stops directly from your local stop.

Of course, the prevailing British view is that buses are only a realistic option for direct buses from your local bus stop, but of course that means that all other trips are left to the car. In a larger urban area such as the major conurbations, quite a few people probably change buses even today.

You are right, of course, that 4 singles is more than a normal day ticket, so the £2 fare doesn't even save money for return trips other than where both outward and return don't involve changes.

I did a brief internship at a construction company in Leicester and had to arrange to have the internship at the Glenfield Hospital rather than the General Hospital because it involved multiple operators and given that I was coming from outside Leicester, that meant that I couldn't have used the Flexi ticket (economically, at least) and thus the cost of transportation would have been significantly more expensive.

 

[JonathanH]

It's been accepted that children from outside London have to pay adult fares. I so not think this is acceptable nationwide.

The £2 cap means that child fares are the same as adult fares for many longer journeys. There isn't a £1 cap on child fares.

 

[joieman]

The £2 cap means that child fares are the same as adult fares for many longer journeys. There isn't a £1 cap on child fares.

Because, as previously stated by others, bus fares began to hit the roof.

 

[johncrossley]

I thought they were rolled out in London in 2014? That's what I heard. Or that's when it was rolled out on the tube.

Yes, it became available on buses in December 2012 but not to other transport until September 2014.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The £2 cap means that child fares are the same as adult fares for many longer journeys. There isn't a £1 cap on child fares.

Though many bus companies seem to be doing kids for a quid.

 

[takno]

As has already been said, under 22s are eligible for free travel in Scotland.

Scottish under 22s are eligible on presentation of their (rather slow-to-scan) entitlement card. I've never really understood why, guess it's just another tax on the middle-aged.

 

[WelshBluebird]

As has already been said, under 22s are eligible for free travel in Scotland.

Scotland isn't the whole of the UK though. And I just can't see where the funding would come from to roll it out nationwide.

The £2 cap means that child fares are the same as adult fares for many longer journeys. There isn't a £1 cap on child fares.

And they aren't the same for many other journeys.

London has child fares (for the tube) and student fares (for TfL services generally). TfL also has discounts for veterans, care leavers aged 18-25, apprentices and for job seekers. Therefore London has plenty of categories of discounted fare.

We are talking about buses not the tube though. I am aware of some versions of discounts available to those living in London (e.g. 16+) but again those are generally for those living in London rather than everyone else as far as I am aware. In my eyes anyone of the correct age should be able to purchase a child fare. Require proof or a card etc if you want but let's say imagine the uproar if we removed child fares from the rail network and replaced them with a patchwork set of child fares only available if you live in that area!

Kids outside London can get free travel in London if they apply for it and pay the administration fee (either £10 or £15 depending on age).

Fair - I wasn't actually aware of that! But the issue of child fares everywhere else still exists. I just can't see the funding being made available for free bus travel for children everywhere - so you have a choice - either allow different fares ro be purchased from the driver, or don't and accept that also means children pay the full adult fare.

Child fares in other parts of the UK vary and are not always automatically available. For example, child fares in Greater Manchester are only available to those with an "Igo" card, which costs £10 per year.

True but that is usually more related to being able prove you are eligible for it than the method of paying for the fare. I.e. in Manchester you are still able to buy a child fare from the driver, you just need to produce your card as proof you aren't an adult trying it on. (Yes I know the igo card can also be used as a smart card too, and maybe that is the wider answer, having a smart card that lets you have child fares that needs some kind of age validation to get one, but we are a way off that being widespread).

Actually I've just read you need to be living in Manchester for this. So another reason against such schemes in my eyes. We absolutely should not be region locking child fares!

 

[johncrossley]

Actually I've just read you need to be living in Manchester for this. So another reason against such schemes in my eyes. We absolutely should not be region locking child fares!

Some operators don't have child fares and some only offer them if you have the council's card, such as the Surrey Link card. The discount is not always 50%. For example, Morebus in Bournemouth only offer a third off, although that is available up to age 18.

 

[A S Leib]

From what I can tell, the Liberals are backing Labor's 50¢ public transport fare cap (excluding long-distance services) in Queensland; I'm guessing they have healthier finances than the UK right now, with the fact that 80% of the state lives in the southeast helping a lot?

 

[Teapot42]

If the London system were to be rolled out across the country, in many areas, outside of the large cities, it would need to work over more than one operator.

Yes, a point I've made several times.

There are still so many parts of the country where even multi operator day tickets or multi operator daily caps are not available.

The Derbyshire bus-only Wayfarer is actually quite good at £8, although that is an 'introductory' price which has been around for a while, so I suspect will increase soon. The only problem (from the perspective of the operators, most passengers wouldn't have a clue) is that revenue sits where the ticket is sold. This can mean operators having to accept the pass but not gaining much revenue from it.

 

[Snex]

They will just look at boarding numbers as it will be simply far too much data to look at. Remember, they'll be doing that for both directions, so they should see a similar number of people travelling both ways but with a "lump" at Newcastle/Gateshead, whereas it will be spread out northbound.

If Arriva bothered to promote it's Tap On Tap Off system then they wouldn't need to ask passengers where they are going.

Yeah that's true forgot about the return direction.

Mind on the tap on, tap off, it's unreliable as an understatement. Got sick of being double charged when leaving at a terminus, especially in Newcastle, so don't bother with it anymore.

Not sure what the issue is and I'm not the only one complaining about it either.

 

[The exile]

But do we hear why people don't? Even people going where buses go.

The eternal problem with data gathering. How do you get reliable data on why people won’t answer questionnaires?!

 

[Llandudno]

Yes, a point I've made several times.


The Derbyshire bus-only Wayfarer is actually quite good at £8, although that is an 'introductory' price which has been around for a while, so I suspect will increase soon. The only problem (from the perspective of the operators, most passengers wouldn't have a clue) is that revenue sits where the ticket is sold. This can mean operators having to accept the pass but not gaining much revenue from it.

Tried to buy a Derbyshire Bus Only Wayfarer on Stagecoach X17 last week…driver pressed 30 different buttons on his ticket machine, shrugged his shoulders and said jump on and buy on one on the next bus - which happened to be Hulley’s….!

 

[Merle Haggard]

The Derbyshire bus-only Wayfarer is actually quite good at £8, although that is an 'introductory' price which has been around for a while, so I suspect will increase soon. The only problem (from the perspective of the operators, most passengers wouldn't have a clue) is that revenue sits where the ticket is sold. This can mean operators having to accept the pass but not gaining much revenue from it.

The original N.B.C. Wayfarer ticket was available on any N.B.C. service regardless of who issued it, and as in the present situation, revenue was kept entirely by the issuing company.

One of the more enterprising N.B.C. companies (I think it was Southern Vectis) priced its Wayfarers somewhat lower than other operators - there was no nationally agreed price - and sold them by post (post free). For most sales, it was a cost-free income. Surprised none of the Derbyshire operators has thought of a similar wheeze, I thought that they were more entrepreneurial now.

 

[Megafuss]

Yeah that's true forgot about the return direction.

Mind on the tap on, tap off, it's unreliable as an understatement. Got sick of being double charged when leaving at a terminus, especially in Newcastle, so don't bother with it anymore.

Not sure what the issue is and I'm not the only one complaining about it either.

It will be drivers starting the next trip on the machine before everybody has got off the bus.