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Will m-Tickets be the future of travel?

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ooo

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You couldn't imagine the railway not allowing you to check fares. Having published fares should be a requirement to operate a bus service IMO.
Surely it couldn't be hard to put something like a fare chart on their website at the very least rather than making you ring them up or email or tweet.
 
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jon0844

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Surely it couldn't be hard to put something like a fare chart on their website at the very least rather than making you ring them up or email or tweet.

You'd think so. The ticket machines know what to charge, so someone has the data - probably already in a format that could easily produce a table - or even a search box to extract the info.

But bus operators seem quite happy to operate like they're still in the dark ages.
 

Old Yard Dog

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Public transport is becoming more and more visitor-hostile in the sense that, in more and more cities, you need to purchase some sort of ticket or card or app from elsewhere before you can get on a bus or train. Italy is particularly bad for this. This forces visitors arriving late at night to use expensive taxis. I remember having to walk miles to my hotel near Lake Maggiore because it was Sunday and the shop selling bus tickets was closed.

Now its even happening on the roads. You can't pay cash on the new Runcorn bridge and you have to pay online by midnight the next day to avoid a hefty fine. There is a distinct lack of information at the roadside about how to do this. There isn't even a sign giving the telephone number. Heaven help foreign tourists using Liverpool airport.
 

Bletchleyite

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But bus operators seem quite happy to operate like they're still in the dark ages.

If the industry can't get its head around the amount of money it is costing them to have buses sit conducting negotiated cash transactions for probably something like 15 minutes in the hour on a typical city route, I fear it will never leave the dark ages.
 

radamfi

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Public transport is becoming more and more visitor-hostile in the sense that, in more and more cities, you need to purchase some sort of ticket or card or app from elsewhere before you can get on a bus or train.

You are implying that it is a new phenomenon, when it has actually been the norm for decades. It must be borne in mind that a public transport system is run primarily for locals, so what works best for locals should be the priority. Regular travellers want their services to be fast as possible, and that means not wasting time issuing tickets. It is no accident that countries where no/few people pay the driver have higher public transport usage. Britain is unusual in having a high proportion of cash payers and is noted for particularly low usage.
 

Bletchleyite

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And the reason for that is that paying the driver *directly* results in slow running.

And that slow running costs bus companies a fortune.

Yet they are (mostly) too conservative to do anything about it.
 

johntea

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Transdev in Harrogate have said by next Spring you'll be able to pay by contactless on every Transdev bus (not sure if that means just Harrogate or the entire Transdev network!).

But yes, I'm constantly tweeting them asking what the price is of certain journeys! Although it seems on the bus if you're travelling in a localish area by the time you've made just a couple of trips in a day it works out cheaper to just buy a day ticket anyway!
 

fowler9

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I really wouldn't want to pay anyone contactless unless they clearly advertise how much it will cost. Especially since it seems to take a few days to show leaving your account.
 

Bletchleyite

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I really wouldn't want to pay anyone contactless unless they clearly advertise how much it will cost. Especially since it seems to take a few days to show leaving your account.

Most bus companies are doing it the old way where you have a conversation about where you are going but then pay with contactless. That isn't as quick as touch in/out, but will probably still save a good 10 seconds per passenger over cash[1], particularly for those people (who seem to be the majority of bus passengers) who only start counting out money once they have said where they are going.

[1] You can observe this at present by comparing a cash transaction with an ENCTS one, but taking into account that contactless shoul process *quicker* than ENCTS.
 

PeterC

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[1] You can observe this at present by comparing a cash transaction with an ENCTS one, but taking into account that contactless shoul process *quicker* than ENCTS.
Quicker? Surely ENCTS is the simplest possible transaction.
 

radamfi

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Most bus ticket machines require the ticket to be placed on top of the machine. That is slow compared to Oyster readers. In fact, I can't think of anywhere outside Britain that has the smartcard reader on top of the machine.
 

sheff1

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And the reason for that is that paying the driver *directly* results in slow running.

And yet withdrawal of conductors on buses was supposedly done on the grounds of efficiency. Fortunately at least one conductor will be found on board every Sheffield Supertram, selling and checking tickets.
 

radamfi

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Fortunately at least one conductor will be found on board every Sheffield Supertram, selling and checking tickets.

For some reason, selling tickets from tram drivers is considered unacceptable and all modern tram networks in Britain either use conductors or require tickets to be bought prior to boarding. An example of the status divide between buses and trams. Tram drivers in several countries *do* sell tickets, although usually not many because tickets can usually be bought off tram for cheaper.
 

sheff1

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Tram drivers in several countries *do* sell tickets, although usually not many because tickets can usually be bought off tram for cheaper.

And in other countries TVMs are to found on trams and seem to be well used.
 

Bletchleyite

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For some reason, selling tickets from tram drivers is considered unacceptable and all modern tram networks in Britain either use conductors or require tickets to be bought prior to boarding

Or the utterly bizarre method of operation used by Edinburgh of requiring pre-purchase but having a conductor as well.
 

PeterC

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Public transport is becoming more and more visitor-hostile in the sense that, in more and more cities, you need to purchase some sort of ticket or card or app from elsewhere before you can get on a bus or train. Italy is particularly bad for this. This forces visitors arriving late at night to use expensive taxis. I remember having to walk miles to my hotel near Lake Maggiore because it was Sunday and the shop selling bus tickets was closed.

Now its even happening on the roads. You can't pay cash on the new Runcorn bridge and you have to pay online by midnight the next day to avoid a hefty fine. There is a distinct lack of information at the roadside about how to do this. There isn't even a sign giving the telephone number. Heaven help foreign tourists using Liverpool airport.
Becoming? It always was. About 35 years ago, hitching from mid Wales to somewhere where I could at least catch a bus or train I was dropped on the outskirts of Newport. A (then) corporation bus came along with "Town Centre" on the front so I thought that a train home was a better bet than continuing to hitch. There was no signage on the stop on on the bus to tell me that I had to have the exact unknown fare ready to drop into the farebox.
 

route101

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Or the utterly bizarre method of operation used by Edinburgh of requiring pre-purchase but having a conductor as well.
The amount of people that are caught i see on edinburgh trams , i mean tourists and first time users .Quite strict ask you to get off at next stop and use ticket machine
 

paddington

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The only apps I will have on my phone apart from the default are WhatsApp, Google Maps, Galileo Maps, the BA app and several web browsers, and that's the way it's going to stay. I certainly won't be downloading an app to take a bus once.

(I might have posted this on another thread already but can't remember.)

Regarding exact fare boxes and lack of information, I took a First bus in Glasgow for the first time recently and it was a bit annoying to have to bring enough coins to make up all possible amounts, since the website was as clear as mud about how much my ticket would cost.

The only other place where I've taken buses with exact fare boxes are in Hong Kong, where every bus stop has full information about the route and the fares from every stop (but timetable information is awful). In contrast to Glasgow where the driver does an in-depth analysis of what you put in and then has to issue a ticket (which I didn't realise), in Hong Kong if you pay in cash the driver doesn't even bother looking at what you put in the box - you just dump the money and walk on without stopping.

Two German backpackers got on the Glasgow bus and offered a £20 note (!!) The driver actually told them to go into a shop and get change, while he waited (he was early), but the shopkeeper refused, so he let them travel for free.


I don't see any UK bus operators upgrading to the Japanese style of bus which I tried on my trip to Kyoto last year. You could pay by a prepaid smartcard, or cash, but there was a machine to count the fare so the driver didn't have to touch anything. This machine only accepted the exact fare, but if you didn't have the right change, you just put a note into the change machine, also on the bus, and it will give you the coins you need.

The amount of people that are caught i see on edinburgh trams , i mean tourists and first time users .Quite strict ask you to get off at next stop and use ticket machine

Well, they're supposed to charge the on-board fare* of £10, so they are actually being quite lenient.

*Now why can't other operators just have on-board fares instead of penalty fares
 

mark-h

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I have seem somebody buy a £10 ticket on board (they were probably working in finance) saying that he would claim it on expenses.

I suspect the reason Edinburgh trams use an "on-board fare" rather than a "penalty fare" is due to their legal powers to enforce a penalty.
 
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PeterC

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*Now why can't other operators just have on-board fares instead of penalty fares
They used to do this on the Waterloo and City Line in BR days before penalty fares were introduced. The "official" fare was something silly with a "discounted" advance purchase fare of the normal fare (probably about a shilling in those days) if you bought a ticket from the machine or the ticket office.
 

kevjs

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Until you can buy individual single tickets electronically, either by an app or contactless etc (rather than a group of 5 singles, which is the case in the Bristol area atm), then cash is not going anywhere.

In Nottingham you can buy a single ticket in the NCT app. Rather handy when you've run out of credit on the Robin Hood card.

ITSO does seem slow compared with Oyster, yes.
Not just me then - Nottingham's original Bus Card was always instant, the Robin Hood (and my dads Lancs County Council pensioner pass) are both ridiculously slow. The app is weird in that you simply show it to the driver rather than scan it!

Transdev in Harrogate have said by next Spring you'll be able to pay by contactless on every Transdev bus (not sure if that means just Harrogate or the entire Transdev network!).

But yes, I'm constantly tweeting them asking what the price is of certain journeys! Although it seems on the bus if you're travelling in a localish area by the time you've made just a couple of trips in a day it works out cheaper to just buy a day ticket anyway!

Hmm, NCT (part owned by Transdev) are adding Contacless next year too https://www.nctx.co.uk/2017/10/touch-and-go-nottingham-public-transport-to-go-contactless/

Bit daft if you have to keep asking costs though - Nottingham is like London - you PAYG and then get capped - so a single on NCT is the cost of a single, get another NCT bus and it becomes a day ticket.
 

philthetube

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Although contactless should speed up bus waiting times. If it still requires a ticket to be chosen and printed this does take time whereas showing a mobile ticket takes almost no time. In Bristol first made a video showing how much longer paying in cash takes even with exact fares compared to M tickets which showed just how slow it is to fill a full bus. Of course as it was promotional it may have been exaggerated a little but it clearly showed the point of time saving.


EDIT: I've found the video
The slowness of cash is down to the fancy electronic ticket machines, when I was bus driving, 30 years ago, a full decker could be loaded inside five mins, and everyone was paying, no returns, season tickets or free travel for pensioners, and with 50 fare stages + on some routes, drivers very quickly memorised 95% of fares and the job was much faster. This was using a TIM or Almex.
 

Bantamzen

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There are numerous methods employed. Some places use strips of paper where you or the driver stamp the required number of strips on boarding. Some places use ticket machines at the bus stop or inside the bus. Until a few years ago, Denmark used paper cards where you stick the card into a machine, clipping it and stamping it. This same technology was used in Greater Manchester and West Yorkshire but was abandoned around 1990 citing technical problems. That was nonsense as Denmark managed to use it for another 25 years. Most of Belgium outside Brussels still use old machines where you stick the card into the machine, which stamps it and it pops out again.

I remember the WY SaverStrips well, as well as the cash-only machines on my local routes (636/7 Bradford-Clayton) and both came with their own problems. The fare boxes would from time to time lock solid, meaning that either the passenger simply added their money to the growing lot lodged or when full the drivers had to let them of for free. And the SaverStrip machines often failed to properly clip the card, meaning that it could not longer be used in it and any remaining journeys had to be clipped off by the drivers. Of course the other problem with them was people using lower value strips than the journeys they planned to go on, and hope that the driver wouldn't suss it out or an inspector board to check. I strongly suspect that the demise of the SaverStrip was much more to do with the latter issue than the former.

As for the march of m-ticketing, I'm afraid this will become more common-place. Not only is it more convenient for the operators, but the less cash drivers have to carry the better. Sadly there have been a few incidents over the years just in my area where drivers have been threatened for the cash they carry, and I'm sure its not just an isolated problem in this part of the country. Plus the amount of times I see people (and not just tourists) waving £10 or £20 notes for a £2-£3 fare, then getting funny because the drivers have not enough change and print a credit ticket instead is incredible. Its becoming a fact of life that fewer and fewer people carry cash around, especially the kind of change often needed for bus fares. But what they do have are contactless debit / credit cards, NFC capable mobiles and internet connected ones. So as society changes its habits, so bus / train operators seek to take advantage of new methods, particularly where it may represent possible savings.

If you think about it, how many people 50 years ago paid their mortgage / rent / bills via their bank accounts, it would probably have been as unthinkable for them as m-ticketing as standard is for some now. In fact these days it is practically impossible not have a bank account far general day to day living, so it is far from impossible to imagine having to have some form of m-ticketing and/or smartcard device for transport needs in a decade let alone 50 years.
 

WelshBluebird

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In Nottingham you can buy a single ticket in the NCT app. Rather handy when you've run out of credit on the Robin Hood card.

Exactly how it should be. I really don't understand First's reluctance down here for that. Of course the cynic in me says it is to make more money by forcing you to either buy a group of tickets, or by forcing you to pay the now increased fare on the bus).
 

button_boxer

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The only other place where I've taken buses with exact fare boxes are in Hong Kong, where every bus stop has full information about the route and the fares from every stop (but timetable information is awful). In contrast to Glasgow where the driver does an in-depth analysis of what you put in and then has to issue a ticket (which I didn't realise), in Hong Kong if you pay in cash the driver doesn't even bother looking at what you put in the box - you just dump the money and walk on without stopping.

Pretty much every bus journey I've taken in the US has been with an exact fare box (though most of the locals have smartcards or season tickets of one kind or another), but the fares have been flat rate or at most two tiers (local or express).
 
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