Will Northern Connect transform Northern's service and reputation?

[t52192]

I live in Skipton, so perhaps we have dropped lucky with the services we have but I was wondering how Northern Connect due to launch in Dec 2019 will transform and perhaps enhance the Northern service and its reputation.

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/travel/northern-connect

Northern Connect routes
Barrow-Preston-Wigan-Manchester-Manchester Airport
Windermere-Preston-Wigan-Manchester-Manchester Airport
Blackpool-Preston-Bolton-Manchester-Manchester Airport
Blackpool-Preston-Burnley-Halifax-Bradford-Leeds-York
Bradford-Halifax-Rochdale-Manchester-Manchester Airport
Chester-Warrington Bank Quay-Manchester-Rochdale-Halifax-Bradford-Leeds
Hull-Doncaster-Sheffield
Leeds-Bradford-Halifax-Rochdale-Manchester-Liverpool
Lincoln-Sheffield-Barnsley-Wakefield Kirkgate – Leeds
Liverpool-Warrington Central-Manchester-Manchester Airport
Middlesbrough-Durham-Newcastle-Carlisle
Nottingham-Sheffield-Wakefield Westgate-Leeds

Currently, at Skipton, we have the ace Class 333 trains that are exclusive to this line (so they don't get pinched across the network) and up to Shipley you can literally get a train like very 15 mins (Leeds/Bradford routes). The beauty of having 2 other lines as well to Morecambe and Carlisle brings even more journey options. The new options at Northern Connect at Leeds and Bradford will hopefully open up Manchester times plus direct routes to Chester, Blackpool, Liverpool and Manchester Airport.

So with Northern Connect due in 8 months, are we on the cusp of a super new service across the main cities with over 100 new trains across the network?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_(train_operating_company)#Future_fleet

 

[Bletchleyite]

In answer to the question in the subject line, no it won't. It'll be some fancy new trains which will no doubt be well-received - they look good inside and out. But they'll still be operated by a rotten company with a serious industrial relations problem, and Platforms 15/16 at Picc are still needed, and so the usual delays and cancellations will still abound.

In essence, Northern Connect will be a prime attempt at turd-polishing, which, because the turd has been there for a while and has been nicely trodden into the carpet by the passing of many passengers' shoes as they trudged begrudgingly towards their overcrowded Class 142, will not succeed.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I have to largely agree with Bletchleyite. There will be some new services, and in some cases an improvement in quality, as part of the Northern Connect launch but many will just be existing services rebranded. Any improvements, however, will be irrelevant if the company operating them regularly cancels due to a shortage of drivers or fails to make any effort to keep the interiors clean or in a decent state of repair.

 

[Carlisle]

But they'll still be operated by a rotten company with a serious industrial relations problem, .

Some workers may possess sufficient power & influence to sack their management almost at will, however as the current progress of the likes of the present Man Utd 1st team demonstrate, that formula rarely offers an ideal long term solution either.

 

[cuccir]

Do people think the full range of routes is likely to be completed by December? How many are running and how many are in the timetable (eg Chester-Leeds is coming in May I think)? Are there any which stand out as likely to not be in the December timetable?

 

[scrapy]

I had a discussion with a Northern director and there seemed some uncertainty whether the Northern Connect brand would actually launch this year or in the future. He certainly wouldn't be tied to anything saying that services would be branded as Northern for the forseeable future. That said Northern Connect is only a brand and the planned connect services would still be operated with mainly 331/195 traction with (except in North East) with seat reservations from December.

There seem to be no plans for any connect branding on the 331/195 trains that were shown in early computer generated pictures for the new trains. There also seems to be little evidence of plans to staff Connect stations from 06.00 to 22.00 or provide upgraded facilities.

 

[Mollman]

The issue with Northern Connect is that it isn't really going to be differentiated from other Northern service. Same livery and branding with no additional features such as catering or first class.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Consistency has never been the railway's strong point, and Northern having had a bad hand for decades means it is completely unused to getting the right stock in the right place day after day.
Then there's the ongoing infrastructure and train commissioning issues, plus all the industrial relations issues.
The odds are stacked against them really.
We don't even know how many Connect services will start in December, or how many new trains will be available.
I'd say expectations are low.
Best to start in a modest way and build up from there, rather than a big let down on day 1.
People were quite restrained today about the problems with the Caledonian Sleeper launch.
Northern won't be able to fall back on the goodwill of long-term users in the same way.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The issue with Northern Connect is that it isn't really going to be differentiated from other Northern service. Same livery and branding with no additional features such as catering or first class.

It's a bit like a resurrection of NorthWest Express, which was basically only differentiated by dedicated Class 156s (green stripe livery) and a trolley service. OK, this doesn't have the latter, but station offerings in the 1990s weren't what they are now.

 

[Glenn1969]

I think quite a few people in places like Brighouse and Sowerby Bridge who were promised a staffed station will be pretty annoyed if they don't get one

I think most of the new services will happen. The exceptions are the extension of the Nottingham service to Bradford and the Calder Valley Airport service. Both are high profile pledges and IMHO are needed to boost capacity and connectivity on my local routes. I just don't see them happening in December

 

[Matt_pool]

They'd better start using 195's on the Liverpool to Manchester Airport route or I won't be happy! They are currently using 150's and not fit for purpose Pacers. If you're very lucky you might get a 156.

Imagine you've just arrived into Manchester Airport on a long haul flight from the USA or wherever, and you have to complete your journey to Liverpool on a Pacer. I'd rather fork out £50 or £60 on a taxi to complete my journey!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Imagine you've just arrived into Manchester Airport on a long haul flight from the USA or wherever, and you have to complete your journey to Liverpool on a Pacer. I'd rather fork out £50 or £60 on a taxi to complete my journey!

Then do that, or change in Manchester onto some nice TPE LHCS (coming soon). The Airport tail cannot wag the network dog.

 

[jonesy3001]

Bradford-Halifax-Rochdale-Manchester-Manchester Airport

Cannot see this service running until they sort out the traffic on the castlefield corridor and if platforms 15/16 ever get built.

 

[Glenn1969]

I think they will find a way to do it but it will be 2020 or 2021 or even after they complete the Transpennine Route Upgrade.

 

[dk1]

Wasn't the Nottingham-Leeds via Wakefield Westgate service being projected through to Bradford Interchange?

 

[Glenn1969]

Yes. To then interwork with the Bradford- Airport service. Probably file under "Not before 2021"

 

[WatcherZero]

A lot of emphasis of Northern Connect has also been in upgrading and improving the facilities available at the principal stations.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Whether it's due to the Government's interference or restrictions on stock or whatever, or due to Northern themselves not doing as well as they might with what they have, I (sadly) predict that services will continue, in too many places and at too many times (not limited to weekday peaks), to be under-resourced; trains unfit for purpose (because of size/capacity, mainly) and substitutions of rolling stock with garbage like 150s on long-distance (i.e "connect") services, etc. New and deep refurbished trains will become shabby quickly with poor cleaning and will be sent out with (for example) broken airconditioning and so on. And, if that all does come to pass then the answer to the original question is surely, "no".

 

[Andyh82]

I could imagine the ‘connect’ brand Not actually being used in public. It seems to be mentioned on this forum every few hours yet I don’t think I’ve heard it anywhere else since Day 1 of the new franchise.

 

[transmanche]

I could imagine the ‘connect’ brand Not actually being used in public.

It's actually a contractual commitment in the franchise agreement that they have to use the Northern Connect brand - with a specific minimum amount of money to be spent promoting and publicising the brand.

It seems to be mentioned on this forum every few hours yet I don’t think I’ve heard it anywhere else since Day 1 of the new franchise.

There is a page on the Northern website about Northern Connect including the logo and basic information about the routes, etc. I don't think it's been updated since the website launched although it says:

We will be publishing more information about the new services and when you can expect to see them - please check back for updates.

I suspect that it will only get updated as and when they are in the run-up to the actual launch of the network itself.

 

[Chester1]

Do people think the full range of routes is likely to be completed by December? How many are running and how many are in the timetable (eg Chester-Leeds is coming in May I think)? Are there any which stand out as likely to not be in the December timetable?

Its unlikely all will launch in December due to required number of 195s and 331s. TPE might be in a position to loan a handful of 185s to Northern but their future is unknown.

 

[scrapy]

It's actually a contractual commitment in the franchise agreement that they have to use the Northern Connect brand - with a specific minimum amount of money to be spent promoting and publicising the brand.

I'm not actually sure that the published franchise agreement is worth the paper its written on. Either Arriva seem to be able to ignore it without penalty or it has been altered with agreement of the DFT.

 

[yorksrob]

I could imagine the ‘connect’ brand Not actually being used in public. It seems to be mentioned on this forum every few hours yet I don’t think I’ve heard it anywhere else since Day 1 of the new franchise.

There's no point in rolling out the new brand into general use when you're not ready. This will disillusion people. Better to wait until you have some new trains ready.

 

[tbtc]

The issue with Northern Connect is that it isn't really going to be differentiated from other Northern service. Same livery and branding with no additional features such as catering or first class.

Agreed - I'm not sure that passengers will be able to differentiate between a "connect" 195 and a "common or garden" 170 - same colours, same on board offering, as you say. And in the north east, where "connect" will mean "tarted up 1980s DMU", I doubt the Northern's posh 158s will be any better than the average 158 at Wales & Borders or EMT/EMR.

We all know that passengers don't understand the differences between different TOCs (and, to be fair, they shouldn't be expected to learn all of the differences) - "Connect" is a way of introducing a fourth tier of operation between the "grown up" InterCity TOCs in northern England (LNER, Virgin), the quasi-InterCity TOCs (XC, TPE) and the "bog standard" Provincial Northern services. It just makes things more confusing - it's a political move to try to tick as many boxes as possible by spreading the new resources as thinly as possible over a massive franchise - so thin that I doubt passengers will notice.

At least Stagecoach were good at using different colour schemes to differentiate their different "classes" of train (on EMT/SWT).

Wasn't the Nottingham-Leeds via Wakefield Westgate service being projected through to Bradford Interchange?

Yes. To then interwork with the Bradford- Airport service. Probably file under "Not before 2021"

We already run too many short trains (two/three coaches on infrastructure that can generally take double that) - we already run too many complicated long distance services that pass through awkward bottle-necks and cross-contaminate delays ... I know, let's introduce a Nottingham - Bradford - Manchester Airport service with short DMUs that manages to combine the insufficient platforms at Manchester Airport and the congested Castlefield corridor with reversal at Bradford *and* Leeds and also the congested two track line from Swinton to Dore Junction... genius! But the point of the franchise seems to be to give Bradford lots of longer distance links (Hull, Nottingham, Liverpool, Manchester Airport, Southport, Chester...) so delayed trains and inconvenienced passengers are a small price to pay for the civic pride of giving Bradford Interchange a more interesting "destinations" board.

I'm not actually sure that the published franchise agreement is worth the paper its written on. Either Arriva seem to be able to ignore it without penalty or it has been altered with agreement of the DFT.

I'd be annoyed if I were one of the losing bidders, given how Arriva have been "allowed" to dump various franchise commitments - but they keep getting away with it!

 

[Bantamzen]

We already run too many short trains (two/three coaches on infrastructure that can generally take double that) - we already run too many complicated long distance services that pass through awkward bottle-necks and cross-contaminate delays ... I know, let's introduce a Nottingham - Bradford - Manchester Airport service with short DMUs that manages to combine the insufficient platforms at Manchester Airport and the congested Castlefield corridor with reversal at Bradford *and* Leeds and also the congested two track line from Swinton to Dore Junction... genius! But the point of the franchise seems to be to give Bradford lots of longer distance links (Hull, Nottingham, Liverpool, Manchester Airport, Southport, Chester...) so delayed trains and inconvenienced passengers are a small price to pay for the civic pride of giving Bradford Interchange a more interesting "destinations" board.

(My bold)

<Sigh>

This is not the reason for this service & you know it. The reasons have been gone over time & again, and are continually ignored by certain members who go out of their way to bemoan any airport service, or in some member's case any services daring to leave the boundaries of West Yorkshire from a BD postcode. To be honest its getting tiresome now. The Bradford - Manchester Airport hasn't even begun to be diagrammed in anything other than Crayola, & we have no idea how and indeed if it will be when the time comes.

Whether some members like it or not, TOCs, DfT & most likely given they have major stake in it GMCA want Manchester Airport services from locations further afield than just a few residential areas within Greater Manchester. That's not going to change, what needs to change is the DfTs attitude towards all the improvement works proposed for Greater Manchester in the first place. Although even if they somehow managed to shoehorn in 6 tracks across Manchester, there would be some that will still bemoan services using them from outside GM....

 

[LOL The Irony]

In answer to the question in the subject line, no it won't. It'll be some fancy new trains which will no doubt be well-received - they look good inside and out. But they'll still be operated by a rotten company with a serious industrial relations problem, and Platforms 15/16 at Picc are still needed, and so the usual delays and cancellations will still abound.

In essence, Northern Connect will be a prime attempt at turd-polishing, which, because the turd has been there for a while and has been nicely trodden into the carpet by the passing of many passengers' shoes as they trudged begrudgingly towards their overcrowded Class 142, will not succeed.

Correct. Connect is just an attempt to tart up one of the worst franchises in terms of public image. They cheaped out on the new trains so that says everything you need to know.

 

[tbtc]

(My bold)

<Sigh>

This is not the reason for this service & you know it. The reasons have been gone over time & again, and are continually ignored by certain members who go out of their way to bemoan any airport service, or in some member's case any services daring to leave the boundaries of West Yorkshire from a BD postcode. To be honest its getting tiresome now. The Bradford - Manchester Airport hasn't even begun to be diagrammed in anything other than Crayola, & we have no idea how and indeed if it will be when the time comes.

Whether some members like it or not, TOCs, DfT & most likely given they have major stake in it GMCA want Manchester Airport services from locations further afield than just a few residential areas within Greater Manchester. That's not going to change, what needs to change is the DfTs attitude towards all the improvement works proposed for Greater Manchester in the first place. Although even if they somehow managed to shoehorn in 6 tracks across Manchester, there would be some that will still bemoan services using them from outside GM....

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but...

• There's not the infrastructure to cope with the current level of services to Manchester Airport (hence the regular delays, the demands that we build 15/16 at Piccadilly).
• Once TPE services become five/six coaches (thus restricting the number of platforms where two trains can currently use at the same time) and the "Newcastle/ Middlesbrough" services go up from a ten minute dwell to a forty minute dwell, there won't be the platform capacity to cope with the current level of services *at* Manchester Airport.
• We aren't going to build new platforms at Piccadilly or the Airport any time soon (however much people might want us to).
• Bearing in mind the above problems, we are going to increase the number of services to Manchester Airport (and from a wider range of destinations).
• AIUI Northern are going to run hourly diagrams from Nottingham to Manchester Airport that will reverse at both Leeds and Bradford (even if not advertised as a through service)

Essentially, the obsession with all of these direct hourly links is creating a mess of a "network" and making regular journeys unreliable.

But "Northern Connect" will make some smaller places by "putting them on the map" and isn't that what matters most at the end of the day?

I'm all for improving services if we have the infrastructure to cope, but the current approach seems to be cramming as many short DMUs through bottlenecks so that we can then complain that the Government hasn't let us spend sufficient money on infrastructure, rather than tailoring the services to match the finite infrastructure that we actually have.

 

[Bantamzen]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but...

• There's not the infrastructure to cope with the current level of services to Manchester Airport (hence the regular delays, the demands that we build 15/16 at Piccadilly).

The delays through the Castlefield Corridor are not because of the Airport services. The delays are in part due to short-formed units, with delays mounting especially during peaks because too many passengers are trying to board trains with too little capacity. Other issues are / have been Northern services changing crews at Oxford Road, and prior to the latest TPE timetable recast them terminating at Piccadilly and tipping even more passengers off into the already busy platforms.

This has always been the case, even before the Airport services started using the Chord, something I've seen for decades there. However some measures, such as timetable recasts are in place and are improving the situation are in play already (I know, I've been across the chord & corridor many times & delays are nothing like as bad). Others such as extra capacity on units are slowly coming online with Northern, and more will follow with TPE.

• Once TPE services become five/six coaches (thus restricting the number of platforms where two trains can currently use at the same time) and the "Newcastle/ Middlesbrough" services go up from a ten minute dwell to a forty minute dwell, there won't be the platform capacity to cope with the current level of services *at* Manchester Airport.

Well we don't yet know just how planners at both main TOCs will handle this, nor do we know what the paths will be. So at this stage we can only speculate.

• We aren't going to build new platforms at Piccadilly or the Airport any time soon (however much people might want us to).

No we are not, but panicking RUK style & reverting to pre-Chord days will do nothing to improve that situation. Indeed for any politician not keen on any spend in the region, that would be political gold dust.

• Bearing in mind the above problems, we are going to increase the number of services to Manchester Airport (and from a wider range of destinations).

One more path per hour, with possible gaps in the high peaks to prioritise local commuter services if the rumours on these forums are to be believed.

• AIUI Northern are going to run hourly diagrams from Nottingham to Manchester Airport that will reverse at both Leeds and Bradford (even if not advertised as a through service)

Again, at this stage we have no idea of the timings & how much recovery time will be built into these services, so we again can only speculate.

Essentially, the obsession with all of these direct hourly links is creating a mess of a "network" and making regular journeys unreliable.

But "Northern Connect" will make some smaller places by "putting them on the map" and isn't that what matters most at the end of the day?

I'm all for improving services if we have the infrastructure to cope, but the current approach seems to be cramming as many short DMUs through bottlenecks so that we can then complain that the Government hasn't let us spend sufficient money on infrastructure, rather than tailoring the services to match the finite infrastructure that we actually have.

"Putting places on the map" isn't just some vanity exercise for Bradford, and the other local councils. Linking large cities & towns with better connectivity is often cited as helping to grow local economies. Whether you or anyone else believes this is actually the case is for another thread, but the specifications were laid down by the DfT following a great deal of consultation at both local & national level. You might prefer little networks of regional charabancs connecting to hubs, but clearly those trying to drive the decisions don't agree.

And this the crux of the matter. As I have said, the major stakeholders see value in creating more connectivity, including to the airport at Manchester. For companies like First this is a route they can grow further into as they try uplift their product from regional commuter to intercity. They are not going to do that with a series of hub only connections, tipping passengers off short of their desired destinations & leaving them to make their way to another operator's short shuttle service, or worse to cross cities on other modes of transport to then connect to said shuttles. Arriva have similar, if more limited aspirations with their 'Connect' brand, stepping partly into the void that TPE create by offering more of a regional express service rather than just commuter trains under it.

The problems around Manchester will in part be further resolved by better planning, better use of the paths through Castlefield (I have in the past been on services held at Deansgate because the platform planned for it was occupied even though another was available), even perhaps limiting TPE stops to Piccadilly only thus improving the pass-through time from around seven minutes to 5. But again, going into panic mode will not encourage investment, it will kill it stone dead because you would hand the DfT and the Minister a 'Get out of Jail' card, allowing them to permanently shelve further improvements and insist that fewer services be allowed through the corridor, because "its difficult". You only need to observe what is happening with the North TP upgrades to realise that this is a government looking for cheap ways out.

So if you want to be forever lumbered with the current infrastructure, go ahead, carry on arguing the toss about stopping current operations as they are & planned to be. Just don't be surprised when these debates are still raging twenty years from now.

 

[xotGD]

Strengthening Airedale services to 6 carriages should be a priority, rather than some marketing gimmick of branding some services "Northern Connect".

 

[LOL The Irony]

Strengthening Airedale services to 6 carriages should be a priority, rather than some marketing gimmick of branding some services "Northern Connect".

That requires longer platforms which at the end of the day, is out of Northern's control.