Will Northerns new 195s and 331s be compatible?

[Grumpy]

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #17 were originally in this thread.

Is it known if the CAF 331's for Northern can run in multiple with the CAF 195's for Northern? I was thinking of the original Bournemouth line electrification where practically everything could be coupled together. Thus could you run a DMU/EMU from Leeds to Skipton (taking just one path and crew) then send the DMU on its way to Carlisle or Lancaster?

 

[D365]

Doubt it very much, the Class 195 will have very different performance characteristics to the Class 331.

 

[pemma]

Doubt it very much, the Class 195 will have very different performance characteristics to the Class 331.

Agreed. I think the best you can hope for is a 195 being allowed to rescue a failed 331 or vice versa.

 

[Grumpy]

Doubt it very much, the Class 195 will have very different performance characteristics to the Class 331.

As did the equipment on the Bournemouth line

 

[Flyingsprinter]

195’s won’t be used on the leeds to Carlisle/Lancaster services will they? Therefore your point is moot.

 

[Grumpy]

195’s won’t be used on the leeds to Carlisle/Lancaster services will they? Therefore your point is moot.

I was just giving an example of what might be possible. There could be others eg a combined Manchester-Preston train with the DMU then running on to Barrow for example. There are no doubt other possibilities. Over the 195's likely lives they will probably move around between services.

 

[driver_m]

Apologies if this is the wrong thread, but is it known if the CAF 331's for Northern can run in multiple with the CAF 195's for Northern? I was thinking of the original Bournemouth line electrification where practically everything could be coupled together. Thus could you run a DMU/EMU from Leeds to Skipton (taking just one path and crew) then send the DMU on its way to Carlisle or Lancaster?

Given our issues with trying to get a 221 and a 390 to work together just for rescue and recovery, I think you can safely say trying to put together a mechanical DMU and an EMU is going to be a total non-starter.

 

[Bletchleyite]

195’s won’t be used on the leeds to Carlisle/Lancaster services will they? Therefore your point is moot.

If they're getting 170s it'd be good to see those on the S&C, the large windows are perfect for enjoying scenery (just like in Scotland).

 

[Halish Railway]

If they're getting 170s it'd be good to see those on the S&C, the large windows are perfect for enjoying scenery (just like in Scotland).

They will have plenty of time to enjoy it as I don't envisage 170's being good on the long drag. TBH, I reckon Northern should get some 185's and use them on the S&C.

Also, there is a small chance of the S&C becoming a Connect route as it is mentioned that the service could later be expanded, with new routes added, so maybe there could be a follow on order of 195's for the route.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would hope that if Northern order any more new DMUs they are bi-modes to use on Windermere/Barrow and similar services, with the 195s cascaded, rather than yet more simple DMUs being built.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

They will have plenty of time to enjoy it as I don't envisage 170's being good on the long drag. TBH, I reckon Northern should get some 185's and use them on the S&C.

Also, there is a small chance of the S&C becoming a Connect route as it is mentioned that the service could later be expanded, with new routes added, so maybe there could be a follow on order of 195's for the route.

158s are more than adequate for the route, and should be more so once they've been fully Connect-ified.

 

[47802]

I would hope that if Northern order any more new DMUs they are bi-modes to use on Windermere/Barrow and similar services, with the 195s cascaded, rather than yet more simple DMUs being built.

Well you can hope but Northern is a tight franchise financially and the majority of rolling stock is decided. If Arriva had of wanted Stadler Bi-modes I imagine they would have got them instead the CAF DMU's. I suspect the alternate energy train for Windermere whatever that is might attract some government funding but I doubt its going to be an extensive order in the current franchise at least whatever it is.

 

[Geeves]

I don't think its ever been in the printed literature anywhere that the S&C would be a connect route. In regards to the 195s and 331s you would imagine having the same builder and same train management software if nothing else they could at least be used in a rescue situation to clear the line? I don't think 170s will be venturing up to Carlisle being honest. It would mean three more extra depots needing to learn the traction for a start. Obviously that isn't a total barrier I know.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think its ever been in the printed literature anywhere that the S&C would be a connect route. In regards to the 195s and 331s you would imagine having the same builder and same train management software if nothing else they could at least be used in a rescue situation to clear the line?

Possibly so. A Pendolino can be towed by a Voyager, it's been tried. Indeed, it's the reason why Voyagers have an Alstom TMS rather than Bombardier's.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I don't think its ever been in the printed literature anywhere that the S&C would be a connect route. In regards to the 195s and 331s you would imagine having the same builder and same train management software if nothing else they could at least be used in a rescue situation to clear the line? I don't think 170s will be venturing up to Carlisle being honest. It would mean three more extra depots needing to learn the traction for a start. Obviously that isn't a total barrier I know.

It hasn't, but it is currently served predominantly by 158s. All 158s will be overhauled to Connect standard so if they remain the traction used, it'll essentially be a psuedo-Connect route.

 

[pemma]

It hasn't, but it is currently served predominantly by 158s. All 158s will be overhauled to Connect standard so if they remain the traction used, it'll essentially be a psuedo-Connect route.

One requirement for Connect routes is the ability to purchase hot and cold refreshments. Arriva have decided to provide that facility at stations rather than on trains, so only Connect routes will have that facility even if Connect standard trains are used on other routes. Conversely if you're catching a non-Connect service from a station served by Connect trains you'll have the option of purchasing refurbishments, but you might have a table on the train to rest your refreshments on.

 

[Mollman]

Apologies if this is the wrong thread, but is it known if the CAF 331's for Northern can run in multiple with the CAF 195's for Northern? I was thinking of the original Bournemouth line electrification where practically everything could be coupled together. Thus could you run a DMU/EMU from Leeds to Skipton (taking just one path and crew) then send the DMU on its way to Carlisle or Lancaster?

The original Bournemouth line electrification had an EMU propelling a non-powered 4 coach unit. At Bournemouth the train was split and a loco (generally class 33) was attached to the non-powered unit to run to Weymouth. Returning to London the 33 would propel to Bournemouth where the coaches would be attached to the waiting EMU for onward travel. BR did build the Class 210 prototypes with the provision to be hauled by an EMU (Class 317) under the wires then fire up the engine and carry on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One requirement for Connect routes is the ability to purchase hot and cold refreshments. Arriva have decided to provide that facility at stations rather than on trains, so only Connect routes will have that facility even if Connect standard trains are used on other routes. Conversely if you're catching a non-Connect service from a station served by Connect trains you'll have the option of purchasing refurbishments, but you might have a table on the train to rest your refreshments on.

That kind-of suggests they could do with abolishing the "Connect" branding and just advertising which stations are gaining retail facilities that didn't have them before. (If they did it's kind-of irrelevant).

 

[pemma]

That kind-of suggests they could do with abolishing the "Connect" branding and just advertising which stations are gaining retail facilities that didn't have them before. (If they did it's kind-of irrelevant).

On non-Connect routes you may not get tables or power charging points on board though.

 

[randyrippley]

The original Bournemouth line electrification had an EMU propelling a non-powered 4 coach unit. At Bournemouth the train was split and a loco (generally class 33) was attached to the non-powered unit to run to Weymouth. Returning to London the 33 would propel to Bournemouth where the coaches would be attached to the waiting EMU for onward travel. BR did build the Class 210 prototypes with the provision to be hauled by an EMU (Class 317) under the wires then fire up the engine and carry on.

But also they could run in mixed mode - it was common to see a class 33-4TC-8VEP leaving Waterloo, splitting at Basingstoke with the 33/TC heading for Salisbury and VEP sets heading for Southampton.

 

[158756]

I would hope that if Northern order any more new DMUs they are bi-modes to use on Windermere/Barrow and similar services, with the 195s cascaded, rather than yet more simple DMUs being built.

I think this week's announcements are the end of straight DMUs. I can't see the Treasury shelling out on bi-modes for the regions though (Norfolk gets a pass as it's in a London franchise).

 

[The 4th Rail]

While it's probably theoretically possible, I doubt CAF would go to the effort of making them compatible without a big cheque going their way.

For those interested in EMU/DMU multiple workings, the IC3/IR4 diagrams in Denmark should be of interest.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

According to Rail, CAF 331s and 195s will have Dellner couplers.
So they should be able to connect to each other, but not to anything else Northern has.
I don't know the position with TPE's CAF units (or 185s).

 

[Jonfun]

Indeed, it's the reason why Voyagers have an Alstom TMS rather than Bombardier's.

I don't think that's correct. Who makes the TMS software on the 220/221/222 is broadly inconsequential as 220/221 can't couple electrically with 390s or 222s, only mechanically. Pendo TMS is different software to Voyager/Meridian TMS in any case, and trying to get two Voyagers even with just different versions of the same TMS to talk to each other is difficult enough as it is.
Compatibility between classes would certainly be a good thing to bring in going forwards but in all honesty I can't see it being high up the agenda.

 

[47802]

Do Electrostars and Turbostars work in multiple, answer no! if you wanted them to work together I expect a Diesel Electric DMU would be more feasible rather than a Diesel Mechanical and then of course it probably makes sense for the DEMU to run on Electric on the Electric bits, hence a Bi-mode like an 800 and 801 coupled together.

Would Northern want to pay the cost for that kind of flexibility some how I don't think so, at the end of the day Northern just want a good Basic EMU and DMU which are improvements on current stock and allows them to Bin an Bus.

 

[Class 170101]

They will have plenty of time to enjoy it as I don't envisage 170's being good on the long drag. TBH, I reckon Northern should get some 185's and use them on the S&C.

No. 185s are too heavy for the S&C, journey times would be slower than today if used.

Also, there is a small chance of the S&C becoming a Connect route as it is mentioned that the service could later be expanded, with new routes added, so maybe there could be a follow on order of 195's for the route.

Maybe but not with Class 185s due to their weight - they aren't Sprinters or Class 170s as they are under powered for the S&C. Take an Scotrail 170 between Perth and Inverness to see what I mean.

 

[Grumpy]

But also they could run in mixed mode - it was common to see a class 33-4TC-8VEP leaving Waterloo, splitting at Basingstoke with the 33/TC heading for Salisbury and VEP sets heading for Southampton.

Yes, that's the sort of thing, and you could also "plug in" one of the electro diesel locos in lieu of the 33 or emu. So if you could do it in the 1960's what's the major problem today given the same manufacturer, same couplers and same operator?
Strangely my new TV can work seamlessly with the Sky box, DVD player, soundbar and smartphone all made by different manufacturers.

 

[bastien]

Yes, that's the sort of thing, and you could also "plug in" one of the electro diesel locos in lieu of the 33 or emu. So if you could do it in the 1960's what's the major problem today given the same manufacturer, same couplers and same operator?
Strangely my new TV can work seamlessly with the Sky box, DVD player, soundbar and smartphone all made by different manufacturers.

It seems like common sense to you and me... But it's 2018 now, and one man's common sense is another man's Honerous and Unnecessary Red Tape.

 

[Philip]

No. 185s are too heavy for the S&C, journey times would be slower than today if used.



Maybe but not with Class 185s due to their weight - they aren't Sprinters or Class 170s as they are under powered for the S&C. Take an Scotrail 170 between Perth and Inverness to see what I mean.

What is the linespeed of the S&C?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What is the linespeed of the S&C?

60mph for all passenger trains, north of Skipton.