Will Sturgeon introduce border-crossing restrictions?

Huntergreed

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A closed border us one with checkpoints which can actually stop people!
Indeed - and with over 20 road links between Scotland and England (last time I counted), and 3 rail routes, this is simply impractical and impossible to enforce.
 
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haggishunter

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She can't. Any attempt to create a border between England and Scotland will result in the suspension of devolution. Remember the UK is not a federal state like the US or Australia, where the state governments carry considerably more clout.
HM Govt has already had one experience of being slapped down by the Court of Session in the past 12 months, it won’t be seeking another. You are right the UK is not a federation, but there is no UK law and health is not a reserved power.

An attempt to impose direct rule to prevent the carrying out of non reserved powers by Holyrood / Scottish Ministers would take us into UDI territory and there is an Indy majority in the Scottish Parliament and in the Scottish Grand (all 59 Scottish MPs). It only needs to sound in Scots Law, there would be no recourse to the English Courts.
 

adc82140

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There is recourse via the Supreme Court. In any case, if Holyrood could do what they wanted, why haven't they organised IndyRef 2?
 

haggishunter

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There is recourse via the Supreme Court. In any case, if Holyrood could do what they wanted, why haven't they organised IndyRef 2?
The Referendums (Scotland) Bill received Royal Assent and became an Act of the Scottish Parliament on 29 January 2020. Thus the decision to proceed with an IndyRef rests with the Scottish Ministers, obviously Brexit aside things have rather changed since the 29th Jan, so who knows what the period between now and the May 2021 Scottish General Election will hold.
 

AdamWW

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The Referendums (Scotland) Bill received Royal Assent and became an Act of the Scottish Parliament on 29 January 2020. Thus the decision to proceed with an IndyRef rests with the Scottish Ministers, obviously Brexit aside things have rather changed since the 29th Jan, so who knows what the period between now and the May 2021 Scottish General Election will hold.
Off topic - but is that really true that this bill gives them the ability to call an independence referendum without agreement from the UK government?
 

haggishunter

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Or without, as no one was checking the six times I crossed it legitimately during the lockdown.
As it happened if you were challenged at the border at the height of lockdown it was more likely to have been by Cumbria Police than Police Scotland.

Ultimately the avoidance of restrictions between NI and GB or Scotland & England comes with HM Govt pursuing a zero Covid strategy - the ball is in their court, even more so from the emphasis the Tories have put on Scottish Schools opening normally in a weeks time.
 

Butts

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As it happened if you were challenged at the border at the height of lockdown it was more likely to have been by Cumbria Police than Police Scotland.

Ultimately the avoidance of restrictions between NI and GB or Scotland & England comes with HM Govt pursuing a zero Covid strategy - the ball is in their court, even more so from the emphasis the Tories have put on Scottish Schools opening normally in a weeks time.
I for one sincerely hope the Schools do open normally and get the blighters off the streets and hanging around the shops.
 
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A lot of the suggestions in this thread are really far fetched. I don't think there's much suggestion that the Scottish Government would want to take such an extreme measure. I've never seen a 14 day quarantine proposed for all people entering England from Scotland. Given how interlinked the border communities are it'd be absurd.

It isn't absurd to be concerned about tourists crossing the border though. Infection rates are higher in England, and large numbers of tourists coming into Scotland rather than going abroad could be a real risk. Likewise it makes a lot of sense to advise people in Scotland not to visit the worst affected areas of England right now unless it's absolutely necessary.

As it is Sturgeon is gaining far more credibility by being measured and responsible right now with Covid restrictions than she could ever get by appealing to the hardcore independence nutjobs. As it is most of that crowd hate Sturgeon because they think she betrayed Alex Salmond amongst other reasons.
 

Huntergreed

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A lot of the suggestions in this thread are really far fetched. I don't think there's much suggestion that the Scottish Government would want to take such an extreme measure. I've never seen a 14-day quarantine proposed for all people entering England from Scotland. Given how interlinked the border communities are it'd be absurd.

It isn't absurd to be concerned about tourists crossing the border though. Infection rates are higher in England, and large numbers of tourists coming into Scotland rather than going abroad could be a real risk. Likewise, it makes a lot of sense to advise people in Scotland not to visit the worst affected areas of England right now unless it's absolutely necessary.

As it is Sturgeon is gaining far more credibility by being measured and responsible right now with COVID restrictions than she could ever get by appealing to the hardcore independence nutjobs. As it is most of that crowd hate Sturgeon because they think she betrayed Alex Salmond amongst other reasons.
To be fair, she was asked a question on whether she would impose it at a briefing one day and stated she 'wouldn't rule it out on Public Health grounds', so it's clear she's at least considering it.

I agree it's one of the many problems that having devolved administrations on an island nations presents, we have 3 different approaches taken by the 3 different British nations (Scotland, England, Wales) and, due to this, there's many problems that, if we simply treated this as a single approach on this island, we wouldn't now be facing (like the potential necessity of a Scotland/England border quarantine (which in my mind, is simply impossible)).
 

infobleep

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If Nicola Sturgeon advised people not to travel to certain areas, except for essential travel, which that invalidate somienss travel insurance if they did?

I accept most people just travelling in the UK wouldn't have travel insurance.
 

Bletchleyite

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If Nicola Sturgeon advised people not to travel to certain areas, except for essential travel, which that invalidate somienss travel insurance if they did?

I accept most people just travelling in the UK wouldn't have travel insurance.
This would depend on the wording of the policy, but I suspect almost nobody travelling domestically in the UK is covered by travel insurance anyway.
 

AdamWW

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This would depend on the wording of the policy, but I suspect almost nobody travelling domestically in the UK is covered by travel insurance anyway.
Might be more than you think.

I don't know how common it is but when I've had yearly overseas travel insurance it's included cover for domestic journeys with a booked overnight stay as, essentially, a free extra.
 

Bletchleyite

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Might be more than you think.

I don't know how common it is but when I've had yearly overseas travel insurance it's included cover for domestic journeys with a booked overnight stay as, essentially, a free extra.
Most of the ones I've had have required more than 2 nights, and most domestic travel is weekend trips. I don't have one at the moment - very little point! :)
 

AdamWW

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Most of the ones I've had have required more than 2 nights, and most domestic travel is weekend trips. I don't have one at the moment - very little point! :)
I suspect quite a few are the out-on-Friday-night, back-on-Sunday type though, so you get one full day.

No not good news for the travel insurance industry at the moment.
 

Bletchleyite

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I suspect quite a few are the out-on-Friday-night, back-on-Sunday type though, so you get one full day.
Yes, but most policies I have had would not cover that, they required more than two nights, i.e. a minimum of three. Some people might take Friday or Monday off and thus fall into that, but most UK "weekends away" are literally just that.
 

AdamWW

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Yes, but most policies I have had would not cover that, they required more than two nights, i.e. a minimum of three. Some people might take Friday or Monday off and thus fall into that, but most UK "weekends away" are literally just that.
Yes well if I'd read what you wrote I'd have seen that.

Going back to border crossing restrictions, while closing the border with Scotland has clear political ramifications, given that we seem to have quite a disparity in infection levels through the UK maybe internal travel restrictions would on balance be a good thing if it permitted life to go back to something closer than normal in some areas.

Politically it would probably help if none of those fell across the borders between England, Scotland and Wales.
 

Bletchleyite

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Going back to border crossing restrictions, while closing the border with Scotland has clear political ramifications, given that we seem to have quite a disparity in infection levels through the UK maybe internal travel restrictions would on balance be a good thing if it permitted life to go back to something closer than normal in some areas.
Quite possibly, though I'd rather it was the UK outside border, I would accept being confined to Buckinghamshire if it meant there was absolutely no social distancing required (i.e. "old normal").
 
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To be fair, she was asked a question on whether she would impose it at a briefing one day and stated she 'wouldn't rule it out on Public Health grounds', so it's clear she's at least considering it.

I agree it's one of the many problems that having devolved administrations on an island nations presents, we have 3 different approaches taken by the 3 different British nations (Scotland, England, Wales) and, due to this, there's many problems that, if we simply treated this as a single approach on this island, we wouldn't now be facing (like the potential necessity of a Scotland/England border quarantine (which in my mind, is simply impossible)).
If we'd used one single approach we wouldn't have been able to adapt it to different circumstances in different areas, potentially resulting in worse consequences than minor political friction caused by devolution. The reason behind this is that Scotland's devolved approach knocked down infection rates to a far lower level, had we taken a one nation approach then infection rates in Scotland would be far higher than they currently are.
 

A Challenge

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Quite possibly, though I'd rather it was the UK outside border, I would accept being confined to Buckinghamshire if it meant there was absolutely no social distancing required (i.e. "old normal").
I'd agree, as long as it was no distancing or masks.
 

adc82140

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County level would never work. Fine if you live in the centre of a county. I live in Hampshire. My nearest big supermarkets are in Wiltshire. To access some council services (the tip) I have to drive through Dorset.
 

Bletchleyite

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County level would never work. Fine if you live in the centre of a county. I live in Hampshire. My nearest big supermarkets are in Wiltshire. To access some council services (the tip) I have to drive through Dorset.
Yes, I don't think that's actually realistic, but it was more a general point that I would consider movement restrictions an acceptable trade-off for removal of distancing - and as such if I lived in Scotland I would support the suggestion of closing the Scottish-English border, or requiring 14 day isolation and/or testing for those crossing it.
 

AdamWW

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Yes, I don't think that's actually realistic, but it was more a general point that I would consider movement restrictions an acceptable trade-off for removal of distancing - and as such if I lived in Scotland I would support the suggestion of closing the Scottish-English border, or requiring 14 day isolation and/or testing for those crossing it.
Administrative boundaries are probably not the best way to do such a thing, if you were going to do it

It does look as if coronavirus is prone to flaring up in clusters, so introducing temporary but strict travel restrictions in some areas might be a least worst option.

But maybe we just need a better tracing and tracking system.

(In passing, I believe that the (in)famous Imperial model was based on flu - this might be why it didn't seem to take account of the impact of people travelling large distances to mass gatherings - presumably it assumed a fairly uniform level of infections throughout the country. However if you need to make decisions quickly and the choice is no model or a non-ideal one, what do you do?)
 

duncanp

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Yes, I'm talking about the "old normal". It would be annoying not to be able to go on holiday or to visit family, but daily life would be much better.
But for some people, daily life does involve visiting friends and family, and not all families live in the same county.

Local authority boundaries are rather arbitrary anyway.

I live in the Borough of Sandwell, in the West Midlands, but the boundary between Sandwell and Birmingham runs right along the street that I live, so the other side of the street is in Birmingham, as are my family, who only live two miles away.

Perhaps one way of dealing with a rise in cases in a particular area is to advise against all but essential travel to that area, whilst keeping shops and services open, unless there is a good reason to close them. The one thing you don't want to happen is for people from an area with a local outbreak having to travel outside that area because the things they want to do area closed.
 

Butts

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But for some people, daily life does involve visiting friends and family, and not all families live in the same county.

Local authority boundaries are rather arbitrary anyway.

I live in the Borough of Sandwell, in the West Midlands, but the boundary between Sandwell and Birmingham runs right along the street that I live, so the other side of the street is in Birmingham, as are my family, who only live two miles away.

Perhaps one way of dealing with a rise in cases in a particular area is to advise against all but essential travel to that area, whilst keeping shops and services open, unless there is a good reason to close them. The one thing you don't want to happen is for people from an area with a local outbreak having to travel outside that area because the things they want to do area closed.
My son lives in Sandwell as does my ex-wife.

Both live at different ends of Cradley Heath one actually within the Dudley Metropolitan Borough Area and the other yards from it and much lower Council Tax !!

It strikes me a lot of these new "hotspots" both in Sandwell and the Northern English ones have heavy immigrant populations- is this a coincidence ?
 

Butts

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Yes, I don't think that's actually realistic, but it was more a general point that I would consider movement restrictions an acceptable trade-off for removal of distancing - and as such if I lived in Scotland I would support the suggestion of closing the Scottish-English border, or requiring 14 day isolation and/or testing for those crossing it.
Speaking as someone who lives in Scotland, you can forget that. I think a tactical strike should be ordered on your house in Milton Keynes :E
 

duncanp

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It strikes me a lot of these new "hotspots" both in Sandwell and the Northern English ones have heavy immigrant populations- is this a coincidence ?
This is true.

I have said elsewhere on this forum that Sandwell Council hired contact tracers who could speak Punjabi, Urdu, Hindi and several other Asian languages, because many of the people they needed to speak to spoke little or no English.

Once this happened, the infection rate dropped by nearly 50%, from a peak of 36.1 (cases in the last 7 days per 100,000 of population) to the current figure of 19.9 (based on yesterdays figures)

Additionally, Sandwell is divided into 38 wards, and only 14 wards have any cases at all. These are mostly concentrated in the Smethwick and West Bromwich areas.
 

adc82140

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When I drove down the M74 on Saturday south of Glasgow heading for Cumbria, the dot matrix signs were reading "NW England travel restrictions". I don't believe there actually are any unless you live in one of the affected areas, so that was a little flexibility of the truth from Transport Scotland.
 

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