Will the East Midlands Trains franchise be renewed?

[JDi]

Hi everyone,

I noticed that the East Midlands Trains (EMT) franchise is scheduled for renewal in August 2019. Do you think that the EMT franchise will be renewed or if not, which franchise would take over? Also, is the electrification still going ahead on the London line?





(see: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...dlands-rail-franchise-public-consultation.pdf )

 

[highspeed990]

If it is do you think they might change the branding? Stagecoach have lost South West Trains so if the franchise is renewed they might get rid of the 'Trains' branding and do something new. First started removing 'First' from the names after they lost First Capital Connect.

 

[Domh245]

In short - nobody knows, it depends on the quality of the bids from First/Trenitalia, Arriva, and Stagecoach. Stagecoach have lost a number of their recent bids, so you'd think that they'd have learnt the relevant lessons and can put in a strong bid. The electrification is now only going to be to Corby, so Derby, Nottingham and Sheffield will remain unelectrified.

As for changing the branding, I doubt it very much. I think it is something of a leap of the imagination to lay First's recent successes in bidding at their decision to drop their name from the operating company, it is rather more likely that they just have a strong bidding team.

 

[JDi]

Ah, how will the electrification work if it only goes as far as Corby? Will the trains have a pantograth or will the tracks be electrified? Also, what happens if a train (bound for London) starts at Sheffield/Nottingham - will some trains just be diesel/electric or will all trains have dual functionality? When are the current batch of Meridians due to be replaced and will EMT finally get rid of their outdated (in my perspective!) HSTs on their London line?

 

[ooo]

Ah, how will the electrification work if it only goes as far as Corby? Will the trains have a pantograth or will the tracks be electrified? Also, what happens if a train (bound for London) starts at Sheffield/Nottingham - will some trains just be diesel/electric or will all trains have dual functionality? When are the current batch of Meridians due to be replaced and will EMT finally get rid of their outdated (in my perspective!) HSTs on their London line?

Overhead wire electrification just like from London to Bedford. For trains going further on it depends what is specified. They could just be diesel like they are at the moment or the could be bi-modes similar to those about to be introduced onGWR

 

[HH]

Stagecoach have lost a number of their recent bids, so you'd think that they'd have learnt the relevant lessons and can put in a strong bid.

If only it were that simple. Although they will have received feedback from DfT on where their bid failed to meet requirements, it's not very detailed and what about where they met them, but the other bidders met them better? Also there aren't huge numbers of people expert in bidding and many of those will already be tied up working for the opposition or DfT. There's a reason these things tend to run in cycles.

As for changing the branding, I doubt it very much. I think it is something of a leap of the imagination to lay First's recent successes in bidding at their decision to drop their name from the operating company, it is rather more likely that they just have a strong bidding team.

Or others have weak ones. First lost ScotRail after all; I think that should point to who has the strongest bidding team at the moment.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Ah, how will the electrification work if it only goes as far as Corby? Will the trains have a pantograth or will the tracks be electrified? Also, what happens if a train (bound for London) starts at Sheffield/Nottingham - will some trains just be diesel/electric or will all trains have dual functionality? When are the current batch of Meridians due to be replaced and will EMT finally get rid of their outdated (in my perspective!) HSTs on their London line?

When the DfT announced that electrification would not reach beyond Kettering/Corby, the MML was promised bi-mode trains from about 2022.
They have conducted a consultation for the new franchise and will issue the ITT next April.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...dlands-rail-franchise-public-consultation.pdf

 

[JDi]

I like East Midlands Trains and their Meridian trains, it's just their 'High Speed Trains' on their London line that i'm not too fond of.

 

[nottsnurse]

I like East Midlands Trains and their Meridian trains, it's just their 'High Speed Trains' on their London line that i'm not too fond of.

I'm of the opposite opinion. Whilst the 222's are comfortable enough I prefer the HST's, both for my regular commutes between Nottingham and Leicester, and longer distance to London and back.

 

[MCR247]

I prefer 222s due to their plugs throughout and better ride quality, although they really are lacking mobile signal boosters which lets them down

 

[Raul_Duke]

I like East Midlands Trains and their Meridian trains, it's just their 'High Speed Trains' on their London line that i'm not too fond of.

Well you’ll be disappointed when they get the 2+6 Grand Central HST sets later.....

 

[XCTurbostar]

Well you’ll be disappointed when they get the 2+6 Grand Central HST sets later.....

I’ve heard this around a lot. Has this been fully confirmed?

 

[Raul_Duke]

I’ve heard this around a lot. Has this been fully confirmed?

It’s currently in the depot rumour-mill. Mainly as there’s not much space at night on Etches Park.

 

[SPADTrap]

I’ve heard this around a lot. Has this been fully confirmed?

It has.

 

[XCTurbostar]

It has.

I guess this has been announced internally only then? I find it a bit strange that over the years since Midland Mainline, EMT has been handing away HSTs to the East Coast franchisee yet now they’re a few months away from acquiring a load more.

 

[SPADTrap]

I guess this has been announced internally only then? I find it a bit strange that over the years since Midland Mainline, EMT has been handing away HSTs to the East Coast franchisee yet now they’re a few months away from acquiring a load more.

I'm not certain on where it has been announced but I've seen it on the union newsletter. I think the idea is to free up some Meridians for local work at Derby/Notts?

 

[XCTurbostar]

I'm not certain on where it has been announced but I've seen it on the union newsletter. I think the idea is to free up some Meridians for local work at Derby/Notts?

Either way, a 6 coach HST would go like a rocket!

 

[DarloRich]

of course the East Midlands franchise will be re let. The question is to whom and in what format.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Meridians are OKish - basically a Voyager with a different TMS, different fibreglass snout and a nicer seating layout. But they do still suffer from most Voyager problems - not wearing well, small luggage racks, sticky doors, rattles and stink of fumes. I retain my view that they were an important design, being the first "new generation" InterCity 125mph DMU, but it's time to turn them into razor blades, learn the lessons and replace them, e.g. with Class 800 derivatives.

 

[InTheEastMids]

Either way, a 6 coach HST would go like a rocket!

How much impact will this have on the timetable, Seeing as running 222 in multiple is part of normal operations?

Rocket? Actually I'm not convinced that a 2+6 HST will be as quick as a Meridian

Overall a positive development as I would guess a 2+6 HST will match a 2*4 222 in terms of capacity.

 

[sprinterguy]

Rocket? Actually I'm not convinced that a 2+6 HST will be as quick as a Meridian

As a passenger, I've never noticed much difference in the performance of Grand Central's 6-car HSTs compared to the longer formations that also ply the route, although there must be some benefit, as taking out just one more coach and reducing them down to 2+5 formation allows them to meet Voyager timings.

Overall a positive development as I would guess a 2+6 HST will match a 2*4 222 in terms of capacity.

With Grand Central's low density seating layout, it's 48 first and 285 standard seats on the HST against 66 first and 296 standard with a pair of 4-car 222s.

 

[Mugby]

Meridians are OKish - basically a Voyager with a different TMS, different fibreglass snout and a nicer seating layout. But they do still suffer from most Voyager problems - not wearing well, small luggage racks, sticky doors, rattles and stink of fumes. I retain my view that they were an important design, being the first "new generation" InterCity 125mph DMU, but it's time to turn them into razor blades, learn the lessons and replace them, e.g. with Class 800 derivatives.

I'm in complete agreement with that plus the fact that Meridian upholstery is becoming very greasy and threadbare now, something which won't be attended to until after the franchise is re-let. I'll reserve judgment on the 800s though, because I havn't seen them yet.

I'm intrigued by the suggestion of freeing up some Meridians for local work in the Notts/Derby area, could someone elaborate?

 

[JonathanH]

I'm in complete agreement with that plus the fact that Meridian upholstery is becoming very greasy and threadbare now, something which won't be attended to until after the franchise is re-let. I'll reserve judgment on the 800s though, because I havn't seen them yet.

I'm intrigued by the suggestion of freeing up some Meridians for local work in the Notts/Derby area, could someone elaborate?

Using Meridians on local work wasn't the reason put forward elsewhere for transferring the Grand Central HSTs. It was suggested that the Thameslink timetable means that some of the Meridian diagrams are too tight and as a result additional rolling stock (the Grand Central HSTs) is required to fill the gaps. There really isn't any reason why Meridians should be put on local work.

On the other point, why were Meridians fitted with a cloth type upholstery at the time of the last refresh when the other units (HSTs / Units) have conventional moquette? Is there something about the seat frame which means a thinner cloth is required?

 

[Suraggu]

First Group stated a couple of years ago "We dont bid on fantasy franchises". I think the meaning with that is they got there act together since Tim O Toole has been in charge eg: bid teams are not offering specifications that could never be met, financially and operationally. First's bid for the South Western franchise was proof that they really have changed the tide in the way they bid.

Stagecoach on the other hand with the East Coast franchise (Yes I know its 90%) and the failed SW bid shows they still try to throw as much premium back to the DfT as possible.

 

[Class 170101]

The problem is its money the DfT wants. If the bidders are prepared to offer it.....

 

[Timrud]

222's on the Liverpool - Norwich line might be a good idea?

 

[Suraggu]

The problem is its money the DfT wants. If the bidders are prepared to offer it.....

The industry is widely aware that First/MTR financial bid for the South Western franchise was significantly lower than Stagecoach's so I do not think the DfT are consistently looking at the premium.

 

[Kettledrum]

222's on the Liverpool - Norwich line might be a good idea?

or alternatively if the Nottingham to Cardiff route was added to the East Midlands franchise, they could work there.

In the short term though, I've been on quite a few journeys with EMT which should have been a double unit, and only a single unit has turned up, with the result that passengers at St Pancras are packed in like sardines. It's sometimes got so bad that the train manager refuses to let any more passengers on board, and later trains have to make additional unscheduled stops. If EMT free up a couple of units to act as spares to eliminate the unplanned single unit working, this would be a good thing.

 

[InTheEastMids]

Using Meridians on local work wasn't the reason put forward elsewhere for transferring the Grand Central HSTs. It was suggested that the Thameslink timetable means that some of the Meridian diagrams are too tight and as a result additional rolling stock (the Grand Central HSTs) is required to fill the gaps. There really isn't any reason why Meridians should be put on local work.

I recall seeing quite a few HSTs sitting around between the peaks at Cricklewood, and isn't one set already leased out to VTEC?
Having said that, if you've got an intensive programme of modifications to do to be legally compliant, then being able to lease a few cast-offs from GC seems like a way to be able to send more away at once for work. Or as you say, to buy service resilience (especially if the new Thameslink timetable has a lot of teething troubles)

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

1) Surely Cardiff is too far west to be part of the EMT franchise?

2) Liverpool line Meridians have always been discussed, but there is a solid reason why they can’t be, can’t remember why - don’t think they can work to Norwich.

3) Maybe Corby should be taken over by Thameslink after electrification. Before you say, too far north, Ashford Int, Brighton, Littlehampton and Sevenoaks aren’t exactly close are they?