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Will there be more East Midlands Trains calling at Luton?

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voyager1

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Hi all,

A work colleague who commutes from Loughborough told me today that when the East Midlands franchise changes in 2018 that they will stop carrying passengers between St Pancras and Luton - something about new government directive to reduce overcrowding on the services to the East Midlands (they'd still carry passengers to Bedford but not Luton).

When I asked East Midlands about this they knew nothing about this and when I Google'd the subject, there was something about a government requirement to increase the services between London and Luton Airport Parkway including using the East Midlands stock.

Can someone please clarify?

Voyager1,
 
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I don't think anything official has been said yet.

It would make sense at least in the Peaks for EMT to stop their Sheffield/Nottingham services calling at Luton and Luton Airport Parkway. They suffer pretty badly from overcrowding and both Luton and Airport Parkway are more than 20 minutes from St Pancras.

Luton/Airport could be served by the proposed 2nd Corby service which may have may suitable rolling stock for meeting the commuter demand than the 222s.
 
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MrCub

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I'm more concerned at how difficult it is to travel north from Luton. If you fancy a trip out to Leicester, which really isn't that far, it's a faff and infrequent.
 

Bletchleyite

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I'm more concerned at how difficult it is to travel north from Luton. If you fancy a trip out to Leicester, which really isn't that far, it's a faff and infrequent.

My personal take on it is that the best option would be for EMT services to near enough all call at Bedford to pick up only (northbound)/set down only (southbound) to provide that connection easily between points north and points south. Equally, because of that connection, calls south of there would not be necessary, though I can see the argument for adding Luton Airport Parkway to some services.
 

Bletchleyite

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Luton/Airport could be served by the proposed 2nd Corby service which may have may suitable rolling stock for meeting the commuter demand than the 222s.

Thameslink is best for meeting the commuter demand, not EMT, in my view. The Luton Airport link is probably more useful from the north given the sparsity of flights from EMA these days. A connection at Bedford is not difficult - indeed less difficult than negotiating the rather poorly designed Luton Airport Parkway station itself - but may put people off with heavy luggage.
 

Starmill

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I would be strongly opposed to more calls on fast services south of Market Harborough.

Once Corby has been electrified and is running 1tph, I think its unlikely any services from Leicester would need to call south of Kettering. Many morning peak Up Fast servces are anything but - see the 0600 Sheffield to London St Pancras which calls at Kettering, Wellingborough, Bedford AND Luton Airport Parkway.
 

Bletchleyite

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Once Corby has been electrified and is running 1tph, I think its unlikely any services from Leicester would need to call south of Kettering. Many morning peak Up Fast servces are anything but - see the 0600 Sheffield to London St Pancras which calls at Kettering, Wellingborough, Bedford AND Luton Airport Parkway.

That's very London-centric and would require people travelling north to double back to London - a very poor plan.

My view as I said is that near everything (other than perhaps a few named crack expresses not in the standard pattern like the Master Cutler if that's still going) should call at Bedford but not for use between London and Bedford. Market Ketteringborough could really do with 1tph to Leicester for similar connections. Then no need to stop at any stations south of Bedford.
 

Starmill

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That was a typo I'm afraid. The proposal is 2 St Pancras - Corby calling Luton or Luton Airport Parkway then Bedford and then all stations to Corby. Mostly these can run 12 car.

Leicester - London does not benefit from HS2 so non-stop and semi-fast services are clearly required in an ongoing capacity rather than having them call at Bedford. If there are two 12-cars an hour serivng Corby and Wellingborough and all of the fast services from Luton / Bedford, why do we need trains from Sheffield to stop? Passengers for Luton Airport can change once at Kettering as long as the Sheffield semi-fast calls there, why would people need to go to London? As an aside I've always thought it's deficient that there's only 1tph Kettering - Leicester.
 
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Qwerty133

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That's very London-centric and would require people travelling north to double back to London - a very poor plan.

My view as I said is that near everything (other than perhaps a few named crack expresses not in the standard pattern like the Master Cutler if that's still going) should call at Bedford but not for use between London and Bedford. Market Ketteringborough could really do with 1tph to Leicester for similar connections. Then no need to stop at any stations south of Bedford.

No reason to stop south of Kettering, ideally they'd be 2 Market Harborough, Kettering, London and 2 direct to London per hour from Leicester, with a connection at Kettering to and from Corby services that call at Wellingborough Bedford Luton Airport Parkway and Luton. At a push Corby doesn't really need 2 TPH so divert one of those to Leicester (or even Nottingham, stopping all stations) to provide Bedford and Luton passengers journeys to Leicester
 

edwin_m

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It doesn't make sense for EMT to go out of its way to serve the Luton Airport to London market. Thameslink's fast service is more regular and at least as frequent as EMT could provide, and the slightly longer journey is offset by the wider choice of London stations.

I think there's a case for stopping one or both EMT "semi-fasts" at the Parkway, for airport passengers to/from further north, but not at Luton. As mentioned it will be important to maintain a fast frequent service for Leicester after HS2 so the faster trains certainly shouldn't be making extra calls. Corby trains can probably call at both Luton stations.
 

Ianno87

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My personal take on it is that the best option would be for EMT services to near enough all call at Bedford to pick up only (northbound)/set down only (southbound) to provide that connection easily between points north and points south. Equally, because of that connection, calls south of there would not be necessary, though I can see the argument for adding Luton Airport Parkway to some services.

Problem is, you've only got one Down Fast platform at Bedford, and Up Fast trains calling have to find a (very limited) gap in Platform 1-3 between Thameslink and freight services, including back across Bedford South Jn.

In addition, two EMT services have to be flighted together every half hour out of St Pancras in order to give capacity for TL services on the Fast Lines. They cannot both call at Bedford, only the second one can - vice-versa in the opposite direction.

As such, there is never going to be capacity to stop lots of EMT services at Bedford. Plus, the impact of different stopping patterns further north needs to be considered too.

The pick up/set down argument is flawed as well. You're slowing down the majority of passengers (i.e. north of Bedford to/from London) for the benefit of the minority (additional service frequency for the relatively few people travelling, say, Luton Airport to Leicester, who already have an adequate direct or connectional journey opportunity to meet demand). Open stops at Bedford end up just over-serving the London-Bedford flow - already well served by Thameslink and the existing EMT calls.
 

Envy123

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It doesn't make sense for EMT to go out of its way to serve the Luton Airport to London market. Thameslink's fast service is more regular and at least as frequent as EMT could provide, and the slightly longer journey is offset by the wider choice of London stations.

I would be inclined to agree with you, but the last time I used Luton Airport Parkway, Thameslink services in both directions were running 40-60 minutes late. Having both operators means that if one is extremely delayed, passengers can still go to London.
 

Kite159

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That was a typo I'm afraid. The proposal is 2 St Pancras - Corby calling Luton or Luton Airport Parkway then Bedford and then all stations to Corby. Mostly these can run 12 car.

Leicester - London does not benefit from HS2 so non-stop and semi-fast services are clearly required in an ongoing capacity rather than having them call at Bedford. If there are two 12-cars an hour serivng Corby and Wellingborough and all of the fast services from Luton / Bedford, why do we need trains from Sheffield to stop? Passengers for Luton Airport can change once at Kettering as long as the Sheffield semi-fast calls there, why would people need to go to London? As an aside I've always thought it's deficient that there's only 1tph Kettering - Leicester.

At the moment the connection (off-peak) between a service from Corby to the Nottingham semi-fast at Kettering is rubbish, the Nottingham service departing at XX:23 with the service from Corby due to arrive at XX:24 (doesn't take into account the extended waits some Corby - St Pancras trains have to sit at Kettering).

I'm sure the fine people of Corby/Wellingborough/Bedford would enjoy an extension to their journey times having to travel on a stopping service rather than the current EMT services.
 

Camden

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Sounds to me like Corby will become Thameslink...

Despite a longer journey time to London, I think there are some advantages. For one thing, Thameslink could offer lower fares than the faster EMT, like London Midland and Chiltern offer lower fares than Virgin.

Also the connections can be made better. A two trains an hour service Corby, Kettering, Wellingborough, Bedford, and onwards Thameslink service could potentially provide a better connection with a two trains an hour Leicester, Mkt Harborough, Kettering, London service, both ways. This means a restoration of connectivity for Corby to Leicester and Nottingham, as well as providing ability for surrounding towns to connect to faster services at Kettering.
 
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43074

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Sounds to me like Corby will become Thameslink...

Despite a longer journey time to London, I think there are some advantages. For one thing, Thameslink could offer lower fares than the faster EMT, like London Midland and Chiltern offer lower fares than Virgin.

Also the connections can be made better. A two trains an hour service Corby, Kettering, Wellingborough, Bedford, and onwards Thameslink service could potentially provide a better connection with a two trains an hour Leicester, Mkt Harborough, Kettering, London service, both ways. This means a restoration of connectivity for Corby to Leicester and Nottingham, as well as providing ability for surrounding towns to connect to faster services at Kettering.

No reason any of that couldn't happen with EMT, as long as you provide the connections in both directions at Kettering, which would require an extra service to/from Nottingham/Sheffield in each direction to call. As for lower fares, all that would happen is that Thameslink would be responsible for pricing rather than EMT, why would they lower the fares?

Personally I think Luton Airport and Bedford are certainly worth stopping at with longer distance services on a pick up (Northbound) or set down (Southbound) basis, Thameslink is there for local journeys. However, it should only be 1tph or less because of a need for the fastest possible journey times to compete with the M1 (certainly from Leicester, Nottingham, Sheffield), possibly by having one path per hour from St Pancras which alternates between serving Bedford & Luton Airport. Of course you would supplement that with the 2tph semi-fast service, but I don't think that alone will continue to be sufficient, especially with continued growth at Luton Airport and East-West Rail connections at Bedford.
 

JamesRowden

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there is an interesting point about Bedford post E-W rail and the connectivity options it will offer.

Network Rail publications suggest the possibility of a Reading-Oxford-Bedford-Nottingham service and a Bristol-Oxford-Bedford-Sheffield service in the future.
 
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edwin_m

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I'm sure the fine people of Corby/Wellingborough/Bedford would enjoy an extension to their journey times having to travel on a stopping service rather than the current EMT services.

It's one or two extra stops maximum, with EMU acceleration minimising the time penalty and more trains allowing extra calls each hour. Sounds a pretty fair deal to me.
 

ChiefPlanner

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It's one or two extra stops maximum, with EMU acceleration minimising the time penalty and more trains allowing extra calls each hour. Sounds a pretty fair deal to me.

Key thing is to have an appropriate EMU interior - (not a 700 clone) - you know - tables /power points etc.....

Watching this thread carefully - and holding back - obvious that things like HST calls on the up am peak at LAP are nothing much more than ORCATS "raids"* and a waste of capacity - as surely is providing commuter capacity with trains that start back from Leeds or Sheffield / Nottingham. (much as Didcot gets resourced from Swansea / Cardiff and Bristol) ...

Quite noticeable how MML trains in the down peak empty out at Luton and presumably Bedford (GTR "dodgers" ?)


(*about 20 got on the one I observed -and the set was there for 2+ mins)
 

edwin_m

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Key thing is to have an appropriate EMU interior - (not a 700 clone) - you know - tables /power points etc.....

Watching this thread carefully - and holding back - obvious that things like HST calls on the up am peak at LAP are nothing much more than ORCATS "raids"* and a waste of capacity - as surely is providing commuter capacity with trains that start back from Leeds or Sheffield / Nottingham. (much as Didcot gets resourced from Swansea / Cardiff and Bristol) ...

Quite noticeable how MML trains in the down peak empty out at Luton and presumably Bedford (GTR "dodgers" ?)


(*about 20 got on the one I observed -and the set was there for 2+ mins)

Absolutely. I expect London-Bedford passengers would flock to a properly-specced Corby unit against the alternative of a 700, unless perhaps priced off by premium fares. Probably not too much of an issue for the Corby service where there is a big increase in capacity provision, but it makes life difficult for longer-distance passengers if the same happens to the service to/from Leicester and beyond.
 

ChiefPlanner

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I can understand Bedford (once described as the outer limit of tolerable commuting) targetting MML services rather than a 319 and especially a 700 ! - ditto Luton to some extent , - even "Thameslink" management out there avoided their own trains..(you know who you are ...!!!)

Handy ORCATS top up in previous franchises - but better for MML to concentrate on their core longer distance etc flows than commuters......
 

westcoaster

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I could also post electrification see, some cross London services. Maybe the thameslink Beckenham junction trains carrying on to corby providing two service to the city.But it would need to be a inter-regional specd unit.

Funniest. Y enough I saw something a while back saying corby/kettering and wellingborough platforms will be extended to 240m each.
 

43074

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Funniest. Y enough I saw something a while back saying corby/kettering and wellingborough platforms will be extended to 240m each.

It has always been the intention that the Corby electrification will be carried out to allow 240m units to operate to provide the maximum capacity from Kettering & Wellingborough, I wouldn't read too much into that...

I do agree that 700s would be unsuitable over such a distance though, something like a Desiro Verve, Hitachi's AT200 or a 125mph Aventra would be perfect IMO.
 

westcoaster

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Apologies about the silly auto correct in my post, I think 700's would be fine but need a more longer distance 2+2 layout with tables.
 

Starmill

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I'm sure the fine people of Corby/Wellingborough/Bedford would enjoy an extension to their journey times having to travel on a stopping service rather than the current EMT services.

Kettering, Wellingborough, Bedford, Luton, St Pancras is all they've got at the minute, and all they would get under the proposal outlined, except with a 12-car EMU. What's not to like?
 

MML

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or bring the Class 387 back from Great Northern, put them in 12 car formation for 2tp with Corby, Kettering, Wellingborough, Bedford, Luton, Luton Airport Parkway semi-fasts to St Pancras.

Leaving Class 365 on Great Northern where higher density seating is required.
 

AndrewE

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MrCub and Neil are right...
Sorry to harp on about it, but this seems to be (mostly) yet another London-centric discussion, when we really need to discuss the transport needs of the whole country. Please can we have some sort of a national connectivity objective (maybe even a Taktfahrplan - and an equivalent fares structure) to give all areas of the UK equal access to rail for quality travel and equity of charges?

Given the number of Scots recruited to staff the steel industry in Corby I would have thought that connections northwards might be one of the business drivers, especially as the demographics suggest that the grey pound could be exploited for leisure travel to visit family roots.
 
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Class377/5

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There seems to be a lot of confusion on this so I will round up the plans.

The new 2tph Corby to St Pancras electric service from 2019 will be calling at Bedford and Luton with the airport asking for 2tph all day service minimum.

This is part of the East Midlands franchise. What the original poster got wrong is its asking the current franchise what the yet to be awarded next franchise is doing. Of course they have no clue as no-one bid yet!

The Corby service plan is NR/DfT hence it's coming. The plan is for 12 car peak services with 4/8 cars off peak. Helpfully there is also a EMU depot going spare on route at Cauldwell that was proposed by DfT to look after the Corby stock in the TSGN franchise ITT.
 
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