Will you follow the advice on face coverings?

[Bletchleyite]

My understanding is that they are not to protect the wearer, but to protect others from the wearer.

Correct. Which is why I'm surprised they're not mandatory - it isn't a personal choice to protect yourself (as per, say, cycle helmets), it's to protect others (more like, say, not having dangerous pointy things on the front of your car in case you do hit someone).

 

[PupCuff]

It's been raised on another thread but might be worth repeating here. The purpose of the mask is to prevent the wearer ejecting the virus if infected but still asymptomatic. Industrial dust masks with a valve are designed to collect particles when breathing in, the exhaled breath passes through the valve and is not filtered. D-I-Y 'comfort' masks have no valve; but do they also only filter inhalations not exhalations?

Possibly, possibly not, without inspecting the mask in question I wouldn't be able to make a judgement on its suitability; nevertheless I find it difficult to think it would be less effective than a scrap bit of material across your face, as that wouldn't have an effective filter on the exhalation side either without it making a suitably tight fit around your mouth and nose. You'd exhale and the air would just hit the material and go out any gaps.

 

[323235]

Yes I will wear it when neccessary but not all the time as it's unneccessary.

 

[Mogster]

Are these measures to placate the transport and teaching unions?

Distancing on public transport will be impossible, certain professions such as hairdressing can’t be done without close contact to punters. Everyone who uses these services will have to accept some risk. However masks may make the workers and users feel better and the only other option is for the government to say there’s nothing they can do, lump it...

I wonder how less attractive this will make public transport.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Possibly, possibly not, without inspecting the mask in question I wouldn't be able to make a judgement on its suitability; nevertheless I find it difficult to think it would be less effective than a scrap bit of material across your face, as that wouldn't have an effective filter on the exhalation side either without it making a suitably tight fit around your mouth and nose. You'd exhale and the air would just hit the material and go out any gaps.

But it's not about where the air goes, it's about where droplets go, and they're too heavy to sneak round the corner.

 

[43066]

Correct. Which is why I'm surprised they're not mandatory - it isn't a personal choice to protect yourself (as per, say, cycle helmets), it's to protect others (more like, say, not having dangerous pointy things on the front of your car in case you do hit someone).

Is there any hard evidence that wearing masks in non clinical settings, such as when commuting, materially reduces the risk of transmission of viruses?

Least of all a mask that the wearer has made themselves, at home?

 

[Domh245]

This morning was Tesco time for me, and, of the masks being worn by other customers, almost all had valves

It's why I'm wary about the Government mandating masks. The public are well intentioned but ill-informed, which is how you end up with situations like that where they think they're helping by wearing a mask but are net-neutral (or worse) because of their choice of valve-d mask. Making it clear with some sort of ad campaign that it is about stopping you infecting others than vice versa, including a bit about how industrial masks let air out, might help the situation but I still wouldn't put it past the public to balls it up

 

[NorthOxonian]

While I can see that there might be some health benefits to mask wearing (I can see arguments either way - less transmission to others versus an increase in face touching and potential for misuse). But there are also a lot of other downsides, especially re mental health. The most obvious is that seeing everyone wearing masks is likely to make people far more anxious - face coverings do make people inherently nervous (this is already true of things like balaclavas). Tying into that one is the risk it could increase crime - this might sound ridiculous but there are signs of it already happening in Washington DC, so it could easily happen in this country too. Lastly is a more sentimental point: we've already had social interaction essentially taken away from us, with all the attendant damage to mental health, and now we won't even be able to smile at a stranger? Smiling and other facial expressions are some of our oldest, most primitive methods of communication - having to hide that is deeply unnatural.

If I feel I have to, I'll wear one, but to be honest I'm worried it'll become a long term trend even after the crisis is over. I've been to places where mask wearing is more part of the culture - and find it deeply dystopian. Short-term it probably does more harm than good, but not longer term.

 

[PupCuff]

It's why I'm wary about the Government mandating masks. The public are well intentioned but ill-informed, which is how you end up with situations like that where they think they're helping by wearing a mask but are net-neutral (or worse) because of their choice of valve-d mask. Making it clear with some sort of ad campaign that it is about stopping you infecting others than vice versa, including a bit about how industrial masks let air out, might help the situation but I still wouldn't put it past the public to balls it up

I can't see that happening. If the Government came out and said "actually, these masks we've suggested you wear, they won't actually reduce the risk of you getting coronavirus" rightly or wrongly a significant number of people will turn around and say "well if it won't protect me, I'm not wearing it" and it would be a further dent in the %age of people complying with the advice. And if the virus is able to get out of the exhalation valve of a respirator then it's difficult to argue against it also being able to get out the gaps in an ill fitting home-made face covering.

 

[carlberry]

I've not voted, but I will follow WHO guidance, and only wear one if I show symptoms.

Once you show symptoms you're not supposed to be out and you've been infecting people for a week.

 

[td97]

My understanding is that they are not to protect the wearer, but to protect others from the wearer.

Correct.

Is there any hard evidence that wearing masks in non clinical settings, such as when commuting, materially reduces the risk of transmission of viruses?

Least of all a mask that the wearer has made themselves, at home?

A quick academia search has revealed that conclusive evidence is hard to come by. The key takeaway is that there is no definitive yes or no, and that more research is required, both generally in terms of viral infections and specifically to SARS-CoV-2 (the viral strain referred to as Coronavirus causing the illness COVID-19).

As an example, a published review of 12 research journal articles, considering influenza has the abstract:

There is some evidence to support the wearing of masks or respirators during illness to protect others, and public health emphasis on mask wearing during illness may help to reduce influenza virus transmission. There are fewer data to support the use of masks or respirators to prevent becoming infected. Further studies in controlled settings and studies of natural infections in healthcare and community settings are required to better define the effectiveness of face masks and respirators in preventing influenza virus transmission.

Face masks to prevent transmission of influenza virus: a systematic review | Epidemiology & Infection | Cambridge Core

Face masks to prevent transmission of influenza virus: a systematic review - Volume 138 Issue 4

doi.org

 

[tj1997]

From the way the advice has been worded I think this is an attempt simply to placate the "if I go outside I'll die brigade" who for some reason couldn't wear a mask/covering until the government told them. the new advice for workplaces doesn't advise face coverings unless you would need one ordinarly; i.e doesn't advise their use in offices or schools.

 

[43066]

A quick academia search has revealed that conclusive evidence is hard to come by. The key takeaway is that there is no definitive yes or no, and that more research is required, both generally in terms of viral infections and specifically to SARS-CoV-2 (the viral strain referred to as Coronavirus causing the illness COVID-19).

As an example, a published review of 12 research journal articles, considering influenza has the abstract:

Face masks to prevent transmission of influenza virus: a systematic review | Epidemiology & Infection | Cambridge Core

Face masks to prevent transmission of influenza virus: a systematic review - Volume 138 Issue 4

doi.org

Indeed, just as I suspected, from everything I have read

The scientific justification for wearing a mask is inconclusive, to say the the least. Which makes the government’s confusing, confused and potentially counter productive advice in this area, all the more nonsensical.

 

[Bantamzen]

Before the inevitable rush & price surge, I ordered some camouflage neck masks, which can also be used just as scarfs, bandanas etc, so they'll get use away from Covid-Mania. I will probably use them when on a busy bus / train, or if asked to by a store. I don't like it one bit, as evidenced above the science is by no means conclusive but frankly I suspect the "we're all gonna die" activists will probably wail and scream at the mere sight of an unmasked person within a 100 metre radius. I also suspect that my chosen design will have at least one of them accusing me of being a terrorist or criminal....

What I will not do is ever use medical grade masks, as should nobody. The healthcare services are having enough problems sourcing them without the general public putting even more pressure on demand.

 

[43066]

Before the inevitable rush & price surge, I ordered some camouflage neck masks, which can also be used just as scarfs, bandanas etc, so they'll get use away from Covid-Mania. I will probably use them when on a busy bus / train, or if asked to by a store. I don't like it one bit, as evidenced above the science is by no means conclusive but frankly I suspect the "we're all gonna die" activists will probably wail and scream at the mere sight of an unmasked person within a 100 metre radius. I also suspect that my chosen design will have at least one of them accusing me of being a terrorist or criminal....

What I will not do is ever use medical grade masks, as should nobody. The healthcare services are having enough problems sourcing them without the general public putting even more pressure on demand.

Whereas, I’ve ordered a balaclava, a shotgun, some rubber gloves, and a shovel.

The next passenger I see, will be summarily executed, and buried where they lie. I’ll do the executing, my guard will do the burying.

A passenger railway, with no passengers at all, runs like the the proverbial Swiss watch. Long may it continue.

 

[Bantamzen]

Whereas, I’ve ordered a balaclava, a shotgun, some rubber gloves, and a shovel.

The next passenger I see, will be summarily executed, and buried where they lie. I’ll do the executing, my guard will do the burying.

A passenger railway, with no passengers at all, runs like the the proverbial Swiss watch. Long may it continue.

So a bit like IT without users then...??

And its a bit mean getting the guard to do all the digging though....

 

[43066]

So a bit like IT without users then...??

And its a bit mean getting the guard to do all the digging though....

What can I say? I’m an organ grinder, rather than a proverbial monkey .

 

[Mintona]

I will not wear one unless mandated. I wouldn’t have the first clue where to get one.

 

[Bantamzen]

I will not wear one unless mandated. I wouldn’t have the first clue where to get one.

Funnily enough Bing on my browser had a sponsored link to buy some cloth medicals ones. There will probably be plenty of potential sources, either direct from manufacturers or more likely third party sites like eBay & Amazon. However I really, really hope people don't flood them with orders, the NHS needs medical kit like this far more.

 

[sjpowermac]

Are these measures to placate the transport and teaching unions?

Distancing on public transport will be impossible, certain professions such as hairdressing can’t be done without close contact to punters. Everyone who uses these services will have to accept some risk. However masks may make the workers and users feel better and the only other option is for the government to say there’s nothing they can do, lump it...

I wonder how less attractive this will make public transport.

Oh no! Not this nonsense again!

Masks are not to be worn in schools:

‘But the wearing of masks is not recommended, for either pupils or teachers.’

Class size of 15 pupils when primary schools return

Primary year groups in England could all have a month at school before summer, in latest Covid-19 plans.

www.bbc.co.uk

The teaching unions are simply trying to look like they are doing something. Their power is absolutely zero.

 

[Tom B]

A lot of the mask brigade seem to think it makes them immune from any risk and, thus, ignore the 6'6" separation.

As to the idea that we should, Blue Peter style, tear up t shirts and use them to save us from annihilation, it's even more reminiscent of "Protect And Survive". Now where are my doors again...

 

[Bletchleyite]

A lot of the mask brigade seem to think it makes them immune from any risk and, thus, ignore the 6'6" separation.

As to the idea that we should, Blue Peter style, tear up t shirts and use them to save us from annihilation, it's even more reminiscent of "Protect And Survive". Now where are my doors again...

It's more like having a handkerchief permanently to hand so you can cough and sneeze into it without thinking.

 

[delt1c]

Dont see what the problem is, advice is to wear one so why not just go along with it? If the experts are proving wrong and it means maskes were not needed well so be it. However if it is proven masks are required then i am sure we will be grateful. Just been reading about the South Korean Night club where 97visitors have been infected. surely best to just wear the mask as recomended

 

[Belperpete]

Distancing on public transport will be impossible, certain professions such as hairdressing can’t be done without close contact to punters. Everyone who uses these services will have to accept some risk. However masks may make the workers and users feel better and the only other option is for the government to say there’s nothing they can do, lump it...

I agree. The main aim of the recent changes is a change in attitude. It is all about weaning people away from the "stay home" mantra, so people feel that it is safe to leave home when restrictions start to be lifted in earnest. If masks actually achieved anything, they would be mandated.

 

[westv]

It's more like having a handkerchief permanently to hand so you can cough and sneeze into it without thinking.

I haven't used a handkerchief for over 20 years. Foul things that retain ever all the crud out of your nose. Tissues are my preferred option.

 

[Belperpete]

I don't understand why - pretty much uniquely in the world - there is so much hostility (however expressed) to the notion in the UK: it's not the case to anything like the same degree even in somewhere as culturally similar (to London) as New York or more generally (to the UK) as in the Czech Republic, where the government has made mask-wearing compulsory in numerous situations, with the very precise and accurate slogan "Your mask protects me, my mask protects you". Yes, it's weird and culturally alien, but so is living through a respiratory pandemic!

I agree that part of it is that there is a general distrust of people who cover their faces, but that is of someone else doing it. The issue here is of people being instructed to do something they feel is unnecessary, similar to the resistance against wearing of seatbelts and motorcycle helmets when they were mandated. There were lots of people who refused to wear seatbelts because they argued their effectiveness was questionable, as there are situations where they could make things worse.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree. The main aim of the recent changes is a change in attitude. It is all about weaning people away from the "stay home" mantra, so people feel that it is safe to leave home when restrictions start to be lifted in earnest. If masks actually achieved anything, they would be mandated.

My "contact" in PHE (Public Health England) says (on his FB, so it can't be a secret) they're believed to help stopping an asymptomatic carrier from spreading it but there isn't enough evidence to justify mandation, particularly as people would just go and buy NHS spec ones and stop the NHS buying them if it was. They are not believed to have any appreciable effect on whether an individual catches it as they encourage touching the face etc so this offsets any positive effect. Therefore the reasons to wear are purely altruistic.

It is very different from cycle helmets because they are about protecting the individual (and to a small extent the NHS, but the number of serious cycle accidents is low so the cost of them very small). Seatbelts similarly, though a key reason to wear a seatbelt in the back seat is to avoid injuring the person in front, so there is some overlap there.

 

[Belperpete]

Funnily enough Bing on my browser had a sponsored link to buy some cloth medicals ones.

I would want to be pretty sure of the integrity of the supplier. The last thing I would want is to be getting second-hand ones that someone else had already used.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would want to be pretty sure of the integrity of the supplier. The last thing I would want is to be getting second-hand ones that someone else had already used.

Put them in a boil wash if you're that concerned.

 

[Camden]

No, I won’t wear a face covering.

From what I’ve read the science on this is ambiguous at best. There is little concrete evidence to suggest that the wearing of face masks is beneficial, in terms of reducing infection spread, other than in surgical/clinical type settings. Plus there is a risk of the mask being worn improperly and causing infection of the wearer when they take it off.

Masks are worn a great deal in the Far East, but that is a cultural issue, rather than being based on hard science.

I would be more concerned about the risk of putting it on, than taking it off.

You will have to be sure that it isn't contaminated before you apply it to your nose and mouth.

If you have washed it at high temperature, and kept it sterile once dry, and put it on before you leave the house, then there is likely to be no contamination and therefore no risk.

However, the advice is to wear it on transport and in some shops, which implies carrying a mask about one's person. Keeping a mask uncontaminated in that way, and keeping it uncontaminated including while handling it to put it on, requires some thought. I'm not confident I could reliably achieve it.

What's more, even in the case of applying a mask at home before you go out, what about the journey home from work?

On top of all this, there is no guarantee your home is virus free. While you can limit your risk to this by washing your hands frequently and avoiding touching your face, all this is for nothing if your mask has come into contact with contamination. Since it goes straight on your face, your mouth and nose.

I'm with you on this. I think this is bad, bad advice which smacks of pandering to those who feel the need for visual comfort over genuine protection.