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Will you follow the advice on face coverings?

Will you follow the new guidance on face masks

  • Yes, I will wear a suitable face covering when in the suggested situations

    Votes: 56 27.9%
  • Partially, I will wear a covering when on public transport but not in shops

    Votes: 27 13.4%
  • No, I will not wear a covering but am capable of doing so

    Votes: 85 42.3%
  • No, I am medically unable to wear a covering (either for physical, mental or sensory reasons)

    Votes: 6 3.0%
  • No, I will wear a medical grade covering

    Votes: 3 1.5%
  • Not sure yet

    Votes: 24 11.9%

  • Total voters
    201
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Butts

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Glad to see no is carrying the day at the moment.

My son works for The Royal Mail - the CWU kicked up a huge fuss about supplying PPE which was provided (gloves, masks etc).

Said Son now reports no one is wearing it at his sorting office as it is impractical and uncomfortable - not withstanding the fact they stand in close proximity to each other when sorting mail.

Scotrail are recommending you wear one from June 1st when their slightly improved timetable comes in. I have been riding the empty services for the last eight weeks without one and have no intention of complying unless it is compulsory.
 

MarkyT

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A new article advocating universal masking:
Abstract
Masks and testing are necessary to combat asymptomatic spread in aerosols and droplets

Respiratory infections occur through the transmission of virus-containing droplets (>5 to 10 μm) and aerosols (≤5 μm) exhaled from infected individuals during breathing, speaking, coughing, and sneezing. Traditional respiratory disease control measures are designed to reduce transmission by droplets produced in the sneezes and coughs of infected individuals. However, a large proportion of the spread of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) appears to be occurring through airborne transmission of aerosols produced by asymptomatic individuals during breathing and speaking (13). Aerosols can accumulate, remain infectious in indoor air for hours, and be easily inhaled deep into the lungs. For society to resume, measures designed to reduce aerosol transmission must be implemented, including universal masking and regular, widespread testing to identify and isolate infected asymptomatic individuals.
...

F1.large.jpg
...
Airborne spread from undiagnosed infections will continuously undermine the effectiveness of even the most vigorous testing, tracing, and social distancing programs. After evidence revealed that airborne transmission by asymptomatic individuals might be a key driver in the global spread of COVID-19, the WHO recommended universal use of face masks. Masks provide a critical barrier, reducing the number of infectious viruses in exhaled breath, especially of asymptomatic people and those with mild symptoms (12) (see the figure). Surgical mask material reduces the likelihood and severity of COVID-19 by substantially reducing airborne viral concentrations (13). Masks also protect uninfected individuals from SARS-CoV-2 aerosols (12, 13). Thus, it is particularly important to wear masks in locations with conditions that can accumulate high concentrations of viruses, such as health care settings, airplanes, restaurants, and other crowded places with reduced ventilation. The aerosol filtering efficiency of different materials, thicknesses, and layers used in properly fitted homemade masks was recently found to be similar to that of the medical masks that were tested (14). Thus, the option of universal masking is no longer held back by shortages.

From epidemiological data, countries that have been most effective in reducing the spread of COVID-19 have implemented universal masking, including Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore, and South Korea. In the battle against COVID-19, Taiwan (population 24 million, first COVID-19 case 21 January 2020) did not implement a lockdown during the pandemic, yet maintained a low incidence of 441 cases and 7 deaths (as of 21 May 2020). By contrast, the state of New York (population ~20 million, first COVID case 1 March 2020), had a higher number of cases (353,000) and deaths (24,000). By quickly activating its epidemic response plan that was established after the SARS outbreak, the Taiwanese government enacted a set of proactive measures that successfully prevented the spread of SARS-CoV-2, including setting up a central epidemic command center in January, using technologies to detect and track infected patients and their close contacts, and perhaps most importantly, requesting people to wear masks in public places. The government also ensured the availability of medical masks by banning mask manufacturers from exporting them, implementing a system to ensure that every citizen could acquire masks at reasonable prices, and increasing the production of masks. In other countries, there have been widespread shortages of masks, resulting in most residents not having access to any form of medical mask (15). This striking difference in the availability and widespread adoption of wearing masks likely influenced the low number of COVID-19 cases.
...
 

MikeWM

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A new article advocating universal masking:

Seems a rather oddly researched article.

eg. this part, which is the pillar on which the whole conclusion rests:

However, a large proportion of the spread of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) appears to be occurring through airborne transmission of aerosols produced by asymptomatic individuals during breathing and speaking (13).

But reference 1 doesn't appear to mention asymptomatic individuals at all. Reference 3 explicitly claims it is a 'hypothesis' and 'the key word in the last sentence [that asymptomic individuals can give the virus to someone else with a face-to-face conversation] was “might.” Many urgent questions about aerosol transmission and COVID-19 must be answered.' Reference 2 is slightly more convincing but is still littered with 'mights' and the conclusions are basically that more data needs to be gathered.

Then there is this part

After evidence revealed that airborne transmission by asymptomatic individuals might be a key driver in the global spread of COVID-19, the WHO recommended universal use of face masks.

which as far as I am concerned is simply misleading. I'm not aware of the WHO ever recommending universal use of face masks. They certainly don't at the moment

https://www.who.int/emergencies/dis...9/advice-for-public/when-and-how-to-use-masks
 

DelW

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A new article advocating universal masking:
Much of that article is based on use of surgical or medical grade masks. Homemade masks are mentioned in one sentence: The aerosol filtering efficiency of different materials, thicknesses, and layers used in properly fitted homemade masks was recently found to be similar to that of the medical masks that were tested (14). That seems to conflict with everything else I've read, and it really seems most unlikely that masks cut out of random fabrics, old t-shirts, etc. would have anything like the effectiveness of medical grade filters.
 

MarkyT

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Much of that article is based on use of surgical or medical grade masks. Homemade masks are mentioned in one sentence: The aerosol filtering efficiency of different materials, thicknesses, and layers used in properly fitted homemade masks was recently found to be similar to that of the medical masks that were tested (14). That seems to conflict with everything else I've read, and it really seems most unlikely that masks cut out of random fabrics, old t-shirts, etc. would have anything like the effectiveness of medical grade filters.
Cloth masks HAVE been shown to be very effective for 'source control' and provide some small protection to the wearer as well. As I'm sure you've read in the article, there are unknown numbers of people in the community who are infected but show no symptoms or only very mild symptoms before either recovering or becoming more seriously ill. They can be very contagious in this period, however, despite feeling well enough to go about their normal business. Source control is about filtering out their oral emissions at source, particulalry important in enclosed spaces like public transport vehicles, where social distancing can be difficult to maintain, and alone is probably not enough in theses spaces anyway particularly where there's little air-flow. If all or most people wear a cloth or surgical style mask in theses environments, everyone within is protected to a greater degree. Most healthy members of the public aren't exposed routinely to the highly contaminated environment such as a COVID ward, so do not need to wear medical masks designed specifically to protect the wearer.

If you're new to the mask debate, please read the following page, which makes a convincing argument for widespread public mask-wearing, something that, in conjunction with other measures of course, appears to have been successful in dramatically reducing infections quickly in a number of European countries, and which was most effective in East Asia where full scale general lockdowns were avoided in many cases.
The physics of droplets and aerosols
When you speak, tiny micro droplets are ejected from your mouth. If you’re infectious, these contain virus particles. Only the very largest droplets end up surviving more than 0.1 s before drying out and turning into droplet nuclei (Wells 1934; Duguid 1946; Morawska et al. 2009) that are 3-5 times smaller than the original droplet itself, but still contain some virus. That means that it’s much easier to block droplets just as they come out of your mouth, when they’re much larger, compared to blocking them as they approach the face of a non-infected person who is on the receiving end of those droplets. But this isn’t what most researchers have been looking at…
 

Bantamzen

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Cloth masks HAVE been shown to be very effective for 'source control' and provide some small protection to the wearer as well. As I'm sure you've read in the article, there are unknown numbers of people in the community who are infected but show no symptoms or only very mild symptoms before either recovering or becoming more seriously ill. They can be very contagious in this period, however, despite feeling well enough to go about their normal business. Source control is about filtering out their oral emissions at source, particulalry important in enclosed spaces like public transport vehicles, where social distancing can be difficult to maintain, and alone is probably not enough in theses spaces anyway particularly where there's little air-flow. If all or most people wear a cloth or surgical style mask in theses environments, everyone within is protected to a greater degree. Most healthy members of the public aren't exposed routinely to the highly contaminated environment such as a COVID ward, so do not need to wear medical masks designed specifically to protect the wearer.

If you're new to the mask debate, please read the following page, which makes a convincing argument for widespread public mask-wearing, something that, in conjunction with other measures of course, appears to have been successful in dramatically reducing infections quickly in a number of European countries, and which was most effective in East Asia where full scale general lockdowns were avoided in many cases.

One look at that "masksforall" website, particularly the 'About Us' section and the hilariously obviously photoshopped pictures of it's founders leads me to conclude that this movement is either a front for companies that produce masks, or a group of people wishing for a more dystopian society. I think I know which one it is.
 

MarkyT

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One look at that "masksforall" website, particularly the 'About Us' section and the hilariously obviously photoshopped pictures of it's founders leads me to conclude that this movement is either a front for companies that produce masks, or a group of people wishing for a more dystopian society. I think I know which one it is.
Have you also read the letter signed by over 100 prominent health experts?: https://masks4all.co/letter-over-100-prominent-health-experts-call-for-cloth-mask-requirements/
Just to be clear, they are promoting the use of community-made cloth masks, not mass-produced medical models, due to acknowledged problems in supply.
Unfortunately, they don't appear to offer a related line in brain shields made of thinly rolled metallic material :)
 

NorthOxonian

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Have you also read the letter signed by over 100 prominent health experts?: https://masks4all.co/letter-over-100-prominent-health-experts-call-for-cloth-mask-requirements/
Just to be clear, they are promoting the use of community-made cloth masks, not mass-produced medical models, due to acknowledged problems in supply.
Unfortunately, they don't appear to offer a related line in brain shields made of thinly rolled metallic material :)

Even if it might have a (fairly small) impact on transmission, this is not the only measure we need to look at regarding masks.

I've said it before but we need to think longer term. If we start wearing masks now, when do we stop? Or do we end up permanently stuck with a society where most people wear a mask and we rarely see anyone else's face? There are also issues for various other groups, not just those with breathing issues, but also those with hearing difficulties or problems with reading facial expressions. The latter two groups will struggle within society if mask wearing becomes the norm (there are versions with a clear hole for the mouth, but this isn't easy to manufacture). At a smaller level, many people find masks unnerving, just like any face covering, and since everyone looks the same wearing a mask, it is likely to sap us of our individuality.

If it is made clearer that mask wearing is only for a temporary time and in a small number of situations, I might not be so concerned, but I really doubt "masks4all" is going to promote any moderation here. It does seem like the pro-mask types think it's some sort of a magic bullet.
 

takno

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Have you also read the letter signed by over 100 prominent health experts?: https://masks4all.co/letter-over-100-prominent-health-experts-call-for-cloth-mask-requirements/
Just to be clear, they are promoting the use of community-made cloth masks, not mass-produced medical models, due to acknowledged problems in supply.
Unfortunately, they don't appear to offer a related line in brain shields made of thinly rolled metallic material :)
Have you actually read the list of over 100 prominent health experts? So far I've spotted 4 economists, a computer scientist, a bunch of magazine editors and a surprisingly large number of oncologists. With all due respect this is a standard nonsense American campaigning org run a bunch of professional campaigners whose careers to date appear to have mostly been composed of getting in the way at large tech companies. Nothing these self-satisfied tech-bros (and they literally are all male) put out is going to make me anything other than less likely to wear a mask
 

Journeyman

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Fully agree with the comments here that wearing them is largely pointless. I haven't used public transport since before the lockdown started and probably won't for the foreseeable future, but all my local trains and buses currently appear sufficiently empty for me not to be at all concerned about social distancing, should I end up using it.

The biggest concern I have is that once mask wearing becomes either compulsory, or expected as a societal norm, it'll be an insane amount of time before it goes away again, and it will intrude into just about every walk of life in a really unpleasant way. It'll make people fearful about (a) not wearing one themselves and/or (b) going near people who aren't wearing them, and I think there's serious issues there. Ultimately, we have to plan to get back to some sort of normality eventually, and I don't accept a society where you're expected to wear masks for prolonged periods is anywhere near normal, or should be accepted as such.

I appreciate we're a long way away from cafes and restaurants reopening, but can you imagine how depressing and grim it would be to be served by someone wearing a mask and gloves? If that becomes the norm, then I'll simply go without cafes and restaurants.
 

trebor79

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Even if it might have a (fairly small) impact on transmission, this is not the only measure we need to look at regarding masks.

I've said it before but we need to think longer term. If we start wearing masks now, when do we stop? Or do we end up permanently stuck with a society where most people wear a mask and we rarely see anyone else's face?
Precisely. That isn't the world I want to love in or want my kids to live in. It's one of the reasons I'm completely against wearing masks outside of clinical settings. If they weren't completely pointless I might feel a little differently.
 

Mugby

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If masks were being handed out free at principal stations, then I'd be prepared to wear one if my train appeared to be getting busy.

So far, I've found just one shop in the whole of Derby that had any for sale and they were charging £1.50 each. Considering their (disputed) effectiveness is time limited, it could be an expensive business.

Not to mention the fact that there seems to be an increasing amount of discarded masks all over the place!
 

Ianno87

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If masks were being handed out free at principal stations, then I'd be prepared to wear one if my train appeared to be getting busy.

So far, I've found just one shop in the whole of Derby that had any for sale and they were charging £1.50 each. Considering their (disputed) effectiveness is time limited, it could be an expensive business.

Not to mention the fact that there seems to be an increasing amount of discarded masks all over the place!

I had to pick one up that had blown into my front garden the other day...
 

MarkyT

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Masking, if it comes on a more widespread basis, will clearly not become a permanent feature of British life, but may be required for a period of some months until the number of infections has fallen sufficiently, then any requirement would be relaxed gradually, as is happening now in Czechia, Slovakia and Austria, the first European countries to introduce mandatory face coverings, very successfully I might add. No one is suggesting it is a perfect measure or a magic bullet, but in combination with contact tracing and testing with quaranteen, continued distancing requirements etc, it can help to reduce the number of infections during each country's epidemic.
 

trebor79

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No one is suggesting it is a perfect measure or a magic bullet, but in combination with contact tracing and testing with quaranteen, continued distancing requirements etc, it can help to reduce the number of infections during each country's epidemic.
There's very little evidence for this statement. The masks4all site that you pushed in earlier posts has some graphs which support their agenda - apparent big falls in infection rates from selected countries that enforced mask wearing Vs no falls in countries that haven't.
But they are now over 3 weeks out of date, and it conveniently ignores the fact that the selected mask wearing countries were hit earlier than the non-mask wearing countries, therefore they peaked sooner.
If you update the charts you find little difference in the epidemic curves.

There's lies, damned lies and then there's cherry picked statistics.
 

Mag_seven

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Has anyone studied the mental effect on young children of them seeing adults in facemasks. It must be quite frightening for them.
 

Cowley

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Has anyone studied the mental effect on young children of them seeing adults in facemasks. It must be quite frightening for them.
I agree with that. It’s something that will live in their minds for ever in my opinion.
 

BJames

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I had to pick one up that had blown into my front garden the other day...
Likely discarded by the same people who can't understand why others aren't wearing them. There's a ridiculous amount of discarded masks around here (saw at least 8 on my relatively short walk around today)... who's going to pick these up?? Don't wear a mask in the name of hygiene and then discard it on the ground, how utterly disgusting.
Has anyone studied the mental effect on young children of them seeing adults in facemasks. It must be quite frightening for them.
Definitely would be. Am I right in saying that school staff won't be wearing face masks? I would find that hugely distressing if I were a 6 year old I'm sure.
 

Journeyman

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Has anyone studied the mental effect on young children of them seeing adults in facemasks. It must be quite frightening for them.

I actually think a bigger problem is children becoming afraid of people not wearing masks.
 

MarkyT

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There's very little evidence for this statement. The masks4all site that you pushed in earlier posts has some graphs which support their agenda - apparent big falls in infection rates from selected countries that enforced mask wearing Vs no falls in countries that haven't.
But they are now over 3 weeks out of date, and it conveniently ignores the fact that the selected mask wearing countries were hit earlier than the non-mask wearing countries, therefore they peaked sooner.
If you update the charts you find little difference in the epidemic curves.

There's lies, damned lies and then there's cherry picked statistics.
This site is an excellent dashboard for comparing countries on their progress, and is updated every few days. Even though categorised in the red here, presumably on sheer numbers, the UK seems to be showing a welcome steep decline in infections in recent weeks compared to the peak, and so it should with the extent and length of lockdown and from such a high peak, but my and surely everyone's worry must be what occurs as lockdown measures are eased. That is where I think masks could help. Not necessarily everywhere, but definitely on public transport, and in other enclosed spaces where distancing can't be guaranteed. I'd be very happy if government provided them, as in Taiwan and some other East Asian countries, but failing that, home made or purchased cloth masks are a reasonable substitute.
COUNTRIES BEATING COVID-19
Plots show daily new cases of COVID-19 vs time, with a 10-day average.
”Recent new/day” is a measure of new cases per day, averaged over the last week.
Last updated 24 May 2020. Data source: JHU
...
 

takno

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This site is an excellent dashboard for comparing countries on their progress, and is updated every few days. Even though categorised in the red here, presumably on sheer numbers, the UK seems to be showing a welcome steep decline in infections in recent weeks compared to the peak, and so it should with the extent and length of lockdown and from such a high peak, but my and surely everyone's worry must be what occurs as lockdown measures are eased. That is where I think masks could help. Not necessarily everywhere, but definitely on public transport, and in other enclosed spaces where distancing can't be guaranteed. I'd be very happy if government provided them, as in Taiwan and some other East Asian countries, but failing that, home made or purchased cloth masks are a reasonable substitute.
Has it it become a habit for you to only quote from dodgy campaigning sites rather than anything even remotely scientific? Whilst I don't agree with what you are suggesting at all there are at least sites which agree with you that are less nakedly flawed than this.
 

Starmill

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Almost all of the objections to mask wearing are cultural resistance or simple laziness. Some people have carefully dressed those up in "scientific" arguments in order to make themselves sound more reasonable.

I do get it - I'm very unhappy with the idea of wearing a cloth mask, for so many reasons. But this ain't about what I think.

It can and should be made compulsory in small spaces, where distancing is most difficult, such as onboard trains and buses.
 

Taunton

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I haven't found a single shop selling them. On line seems to have several weeks "and then maybe" delivery - but pay now.
 

MarkyT

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Has it it become a habit for you to only quote from dodgy campaigning sites rather than anything even remotely scientific? Whilst I don't agree with what you are suggesting at all there are at least sites which agree with you that are less nakedly flawed than this.
How exactly is the last page I linked to a 'dodgy campaigning site' when it is simply displaying publicly available statistics comparatively, ranking them, and making some best practice recommendations? Yes, they then go on to recommend masks, but among a number of measures. I really don't understand how this has become such a contentious issue. Like most, I don't WANT to wear a mask at all, but presumably, nobody wants a killer disease out in the community either, and everyone must want to get back to a semblance of normality as soon as possible. If masks can help to achieve that, and more quickly, then it's something I will be happy to do, but to be most effective it needs a high proportion of people to wear, especially in certain riskier environments, probably for a few months.
 

nlogax

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Mostly Glasgow-ish. Mostly.
Almost all of the objections to mask wearing are cultural resistance or simple laziness. Some people have carefully dressed those up in "scientific" arguments in order to make themselves sound more reasonable.

I do get it - I'm very unhappy with the idea of wearing a cloth mask, for so many reasons. But this ain't about what I think.

It can and should be made compulsory in small spaces, where distancing is most difficult, such as onboard trains and buses.

The lack of like button frustrates me. Completely agree everything you've said there.
 

Bantamzen

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Almost all of the objections to mask wearing are cultural resistance or simple laziness. Some people have carefully dressed those up in "scientific" arguments in order to make themselves sound more reasonable.

I do get it - I'm very unhappy with the idea of wearing a cloth mask, for so many reasons. But this ain't about what I think.

It can and should be made compulsory in small spaces, where distancing is most difficult, such as onboard trains and buses.
The lack of like button frustrates me. Completely agree everything you've said there.

So people should be putting on & removing masks throughout the day as they pass through different places, or should they be buying a new mask for each shop / train etc? Because the general guidance for using masks is that you shouldn't be constantly doing so.
 

Bletchleyite

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If masks were being handed out free at principal stations, then I'd be prepared to wear one if my train appeared to be getting busy.

So far, I've found just one shop in the whole of Derby that had any for sale and they were charging £1.50 each. Considering their (disputed) effectiveness is time limited, it could be an expensive business.

Not to mention the fact that there seems to be an increasing amount of discarded masks all over the place!

Get an old T-shirt and make your own. Free.
 
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