Windermere battery trial

[Roose]

Amused at the thought of a tram on the road between Windermere and Bowness.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Amused at the thought of a tram on the road between Windermere and Bowness.

I don't see what's amusing about it? There is a very frequent bus service.

 

[D365]

But laying a thinner cable for less current is only a bit cheaper, as most of the cost is in the cable route and logistics rather than the cable itself. And Kettering to Market Harborough suggests that laying an extension lead costs about the same as providing proper OLE.

Depends on the costs of civils and structural works, but on the whole yes, I’d agree.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Depends on the costs of civils and structural works, but on the whole yes, I’d agree.

Though personally I don't see why the unit would need to charge at both ends. We've got battery buses now that can last for most of a day of service before going back to base to charge, and there is far more room for batteries (both weight and bulk) on a 24m EMU vehicle than a 12m bus.

If they use the classic pattern of Manchester Airport-Windermere every 2 hours with a shuttle in the intermediate hour (I know that's not quite what operates now, but it was the traditional service since MUs were used on it), the trunk journey for a full charge with a top-up at Oxenholme on the shuttle really should be workable, and I suspect this will be how it is done. As 4-car units are being used, which provide more capacity than the line presently gets, if that doesn't allow enough batteries below the floor, put some above it - the loss of the end section by the cab would be nothing massive.

 

[edwin_m]

Though personally I don't see why the unit would need to charge at both ends. We've got battery buses now that can last for most of a day of service before going back to base to charge, and there is far more room for batteries (both weight and bulk) on a 24m EMU vehicle than a 12m bus.

It's something I've pondered, as considering a steel wheel is so much more efficient a train ought to be able to go further than a bus on the same amount of battery (as a proportion of mass). I think the answer is that actually there isn't much space for batteries on board a train without taking up passenger space, the only option being underfloor in cars with no traction equipment fitted. A bus can be made a bit bigger (particularly higher) without major problems.

I agree there's scope to take away some passenger space on the sort of lightly-used routes where batteries might be the best solution, and the very large amount of space taken up by hydrogen storage in the "breeze" unit follows this principle. However the future Windermere service will probably include peak hour visits to Manchester. There will probably also be a few extra conversions to ensure enough are available, which could find themselves on any 331 route when not needed for Windermere.

 

[Bald Rick]

What sort of current would be drawn from the DNO though. I imagine that pulling that sort of current in rural Windermere is a somewhat different proposition from Doncaster a fairly ex industrial town.

About the same sort of current that the train would draw if it was connected to the OLE.

 

[edwin_m]

About the same sort of current that the train would draw if it was connected to the OLE.

At a guess, the power drawn would be in the hundreds of kilowatts. Traditionally a kilowatt is presented as a one-bar electric fire and is very approximately the average consumption of a household (but probably one which doesn't use electric heating). My guess is that several hundred houses worth of extra consumption in a smallish place like Windermere could be significant for the local DNO.

The other option is to have a battery at the charging site, being charged continuously at a fairly low power but able to discharge quickly into the train when needed. But with two sets of batteries involved, the amount of power that actually ends up doing something useful is starting to look a bit small.

 

[D365]

The other option is to have a battery at the charging site, being charged continuously at a fairly low power but able to discharge quickly into the train when needed. But with two sets of batteries involved, the amount of power that actually ends up doing something useful is starting to look a bit small.

Indeed that’s what Vivarail is proposing with their third rail “fast charge” solution. You’d be looking at a charging current at least 500A in order to get a decent amount of charge within a seven minute turnaround.

 

[markymark2000]

Could this work better if more trains ran down to Manchester. Recharge along the route, use battery power for the branch. Connect to the Blackpool North 331.
If you could make Lancaster - BIF battery powered as well, you could run with the trains splitting at Lancaster.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you could make Lancaster - BIF battery powered as well, you could run with the trains splitting at Lancaster.

Yay for my Lakes and Furness proposal

There are logistical issues with this regarding platforming at Lancaster but if they can be overcome I am very much in favour. An 8 car people eater as far as Lancaster each hour, then 4 onwards to each.

 

[Chris125]

I agree, and goodness knows. It's a really cheap one to do.

That was the theory, but the cost had more than doubled before they'd put a spade in the ground...

"In January 2017, the Department assessed the benefit–cost ratio of the project as 0.9:1, representing poor value for money. Costs to electrify had risen from £16 million in 2014 to £35 million in March 2017 (cash prices)"
​

As much as I dislike Grayling he really wasn't given much choice by Network Rail, god only knows what the final bill would have been.

https://www.nao.org.uk/wp-content/u...ancel-three-rail-electrification-projects.pdf

 

[Roose]

I don't see what's amusing about it? There is a very frequent bus service.

...which means that it is less timetable-dependant. There'll be another along soon.

A tram(-train?) off the single-track, no-passing-place branch would trundle slowly through busy tourist traffic (April to October and other school holidays) presumably to somewhere like The Glebe then return to Windermere, thence Oxenholme adding a minimum of thirty minutes to the return trip and reducing the number of services in the day commensurately.

How many off-seasons would the route take to build? (You wouldn't advocate closing the only direct road between Bowness and Windermere for a couple of years to do it all in one, I assume?)

The 600m Blackpool North extension is said to be costing £22 million. How much more would the 2.7km from Windermere to Bowness cost? Double? Treble? The (£16 million?) cost of 'simply' electrifying the existing branch was deemed to be unaffordable.

Still amused here.

 

[Bald Rick]

At a guess, the power drawn would be in the hundreds of kilowatts. Traditionally a kilowatt is presented as a one-bar electric fire and is very approximately the average consumption of a household (but probably one which doesn't use electric heating). My guess is that several hundred houses worth of extra consumption in a smallish place like Windermere could be significant for the local DNO.

The other option is to have a battery at the charging site, being charged continuously at a fairly low power but able to discharge quickly into the train when needed. But with two sets of batteries involved, the amount of power that actually ends up doing something useful is starting to look a bit small.

I’d say nearer a Megawatt. Clearly I don’t know the detail of the electricity distribution network around Windermere / Bowness etc, but I’d be surprised if it couldn’t cope with a 1MW load every half hour or so.

The ‘double battery’ solution is quite feasible, and actually the power loss on charge / discharge is lower than 1%.

But realistically, there isn’t going to be charging at Windermere, there’s no need.

 

[Jozhua]

Regen would only replenish 80% at best, off the top of my head, although even that would be very optimistic.

Clearly this is a line that should have been electrified decades ago, why has the political will been non-existent?

The National Park actually lobbied for electrification iirc. It was Grayling who spun it.

Doesn't suprise me.

In truth it was network rail that killed it. Massive over budget schemes mean that the business case has been destroyed.
It would be irresponsible of the government not to bring it to a halt.

The reason these projects go over cost lays firmly at the door of the DFT's mismanagement.

If a rolling electrification scheme was implemented, we might not see these issues. Instead, it appears to be all or nothing.

If even the cheapest scheme is 500% over budget (like Great Western) its irresponsible to continue.
Closure and conversion to a battery powered bus way or tramway scheme would possibly have better benefits for the public money.

We're beyond closing heavy rail lines these days. Conversion to light rail was a way to save them in the 80's and a way to re-open in the 00's/10's.

You'd be mad if you think that a bus way or tramway would be a cheaper scheme. Would run to at least £2-300 million.

Also you shouldn't underestimate having one ticket for your whole journey, even if you have to change. Having it in the NR system makes life much easier. That's even ignoring the direct trains down to Manchester once every couple hours.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I’d say nearer a Megawatt. Clearly I don’t know the detail of the electricity distribution network around Windermere / Bowness etc, but I’d be surprised if it couldn’t cope with a 1MW load every half hour or so.

The ‘double battery’ solution is quite feasible, and actually the power loss on charge / discharge is lower than 1%.

But realistically, there isn’t going to be charging at Windermere, there’s no need.

Well if it did a connection there is 33/11kv local grid substation beside the railway a few 100's yards on the approach to Windermere station. As you rightly say modern day batteries more than capable of doing a rounder to Oxenholme. Deutsche Bahns BR515 battery railbuses (mid 1950s technology) did 300-400km a day from an overnight charge using low spec lead acid cells which have a hefty weight premium compared to todays lithium ion cells.