windermere-Euston

[philjo]

I am going to Manchester soon, using an off-peak return from Euston.
staying for 3 days then getting an OPR Manchester-Windermere - stay for 4 days.
On my return, can I return to euston direct from Preston using this ticket combination, or do I have to return via Manchester (it is an hour quicker direct)

I am assuming I have to return via Manchester as Man-Windermenre is only valid via Preston, & the London-Manchester ticket not valid via preston, so the Crewe-Preston bit isn't covered.

Jeremy

 

[me123]

Yes, you would need to return via Manchester. With multiple tickets being used for a journey, the train must call at the station where you "change tickets" so to speak (with a few exceptions that don't apply in your case). So you would need to go Windermere-Preston-Manchester-London.

 

[tony_mac]

Aren't both tickets permitted via Warrington? If that is the case then you can return directly, as long as the train stops at Warrington.

 

[philjo]

I have just tried putting via warrington into both journeys on the NXEC website & it offers the same off-peak return & also a list of train connections, so it looks like it is OK if the return train stops at warrington (I think the one I was thinking of using starts at Lancaster on the return & does stop there).

The London-Manchester ticket has to be issued to Manchester itself as that trip is for work so I will be reclaiming the fare to Manchester & need to submit that ticket/receipt afterwards. I am travelling separately onwards to Windermere for a long weekend after visiting Manchester.

 

[mathmo]

As has been said, London-Manchester and Manchester-Oxenholme tickets are both valid via Warrington. Make sure the train stops at Warrington (almost all of them do) and tell the guard you're using the ticket via Warrington if questioned.

 

[philjo]

As has been said, London-Manchester and Manchester-Oxenholme tickets are both valid via Warrington. Make sure the train stops at Warrington (almost all of them do) and tell the guard you're using the ticket via Warrington if questioned.

Thanks to all for their advice on this.
I'll check that the train I am using for return stops at Warrington, but most of them do in the current timetable.
Jeremy

 

[OwlMan]

As has been said, London-Manchester and Manchester-Oxenholme tickets are both valid via Warrington. Make sure the train stops at Warrington (almost all of them do) and tell the guard you're using the ticket via Warrington if questioned.

They are also both valid via Crewe; Manchester - Windermere (Lancaster Routeing Group) is valid on maps GM + NC map GM covers Manchester to Warrington and Crewe (also to Wigan & Preston) and map NC covers the WCML from Lancaster to Crewe,

Therefore as long as the train stops at Warrington or Crewe you wil be OK

Peter

 

[philjo]

I thought that you couldn't go via a route with a higher fare from the routeing point ?

e.g., Manchester-windermere = £29.20 OPR
Crewe-windermere = £43 OPR so not valid via Crewe (but the latter ticket would be valid for Crewe-windermere via manchester)

 

[tony_mac]

yes, that's sort of right - but you only do that when you are seeing which 'routeing point' to use for your destination or departure station.

Windermere has two possiblities, Lancaster and Carlisle. You can't use Carlisle as it's more expensive (which is the rule you are referring to), so you have to find a permitted route between Manchester and Lancaster and go that way.

Crewe isn't a routeing point for your journey, so it doesn't matter what the fare is to Crewe.

 

[glynn80]

I thought that you couldn't go via a route with a higher fare from the routeing point ?

e.g., Manchester-windermere = £29.20 OPR
Crewe-windermere = £43 OPR so not valid via Crewe (but the latter ticket would be valid for Crewe-windermere via manchester)

That rule is for when you determining which routeing point to use.

For example Windermere has both Lancaster and Carlisle as routeing points, because Manchester to Carlisle is a higher fare than that of Manchester to Windermere, we cannot use Carlisle as a routeing point. Manchester to Lancaster on the other hand is a lower fare and thus this is an appropriate routeing point to use.

Once you have determined which are the appropriate routeing points, you can take any mapped route that does not involve doubling back (passing through the same station twice).

It would be utterly ridiculous if there was a requirement to check every component fare to make sure that it wasn't higher than the overall ticket price. Checking long routes like London to Scotland would take an age.

 

[philjo]

OK, thanks.
Jeremy

 

[John @ home]

I thought that you couldn't go via a route with a higher fare from the routeing point ?

That's not quite right. The "fares rule" is used to determine which are the appropriate routeing points.

The routeing points for Windermere are Carlisle and Lancaster Group.
Manchester Group is a routeing point.

We use the "fares rule" to determine that Lancaster Group is the appropriate routeing point for this journey, not Carlisle.

The maps showing permitted routes between Lancaster Group and Manchester Group are GM+NC, MH+NC and NW.

GM allows Manchester to Crewe, Warrington, Earlestown, Wigan, Blackburn or Halifax. NC allows travel from any of thise places to Preston, then Lancaster (then Windermere).

MH allows Manchester - Bolton - Blackburn. As above, NC then allows Blackburn - Preston - Lancaster (then Windermere).

NW allows Manchester - Bolton, then Bolton - Preston via Wigan or via Chorley, then Preston - Lancaster (then Windermere).

John

 

[philjo]

Thanks for clarifying that.

 

[me123]

Yes, you would need to return via Manchester. With multiple tickets being used for a journey, the train must call at the station where you "change tickets" so to speak (with a few exceptions that don't apply in your case). So you would need to go Windermere-Preston-Manchester-London.

Aren't both tickets permitted via Warrington? If that is the case then you can return directly, as long as the train stops at Warrington.

I should have checked that, but it is in fact correct. Ignore me above It's not immediately obvious, such is the complexity of our system.

 

[philjo]

Quick update:
I returned from windermere to Euston, changing at Lancaster.
I had a printout of the relevant routeing guide pages with me in case I was challenged about both tickets having a permitted route via Warrington.
in the end, no problem, as the tickets were not checked at all between Lancaster & Euston !! Only check was immediately after leaving windermere.

likewise, northbound journey, no ticket check between Euston & Manchester.

 

[merlodlliw]

Quick update:
I returned from windermere to Euston, changing at Lancaster.
I had a printout of the relevant routeing guide pages with me in case I was challenged about both tickets having a permitted route via Warrington.
in the end, no problem, as the tickets were not checked at all between Lancaster & Euston !! Only check was immediately after leaving windermere.

likewise, northbound journey, no ticket check between Euston & Manchester.

Thanks for the result, would not be surprised if tickets are checked
now, do they not have ticket checks on all VTs,surprised.

 

[General Zod]

That's not quite right. The "fares rule" is used to determine which are the appropriate routeing points.

The routeing points for Windermere are Carlisle and Lancaster Group.
Manchester Group is a routeing point.

We use the "fares rule" to determine that Lancaster Group is the appropriate routeing point for this journey, not Carlisle.

The maps showing permitted routes between Lancaster Group and Manchester Group are GM+NC, MH+NC and NW.

GM allows Manchester to Crewe, Warrington, Earlestown, Wigan, Blackburn or Halifax. NC allows travel from any of thise places to Preston, then Lancaster (then Windermere).

MH allows Manchester - Bolton - Blackburn. As above, NC then allows Blackburn - Preston - Lancaster (then Windermere).

NW allows Manchester - Bolton, then Bolton - Preston via Wigan or via Chorley, then Preston - Lancaster (then Windermere).

John

Hi John,
Something which perplexes me is that map GM allows you to go to Crewe and then catch a train to Lancaster Groups from there. Surely this could constitute something similar to "doubling back" ? It seems to me that you are allowed to travel "further away" from Lancaster Group by travelling to Crewe and then permitted to "return back" up the line from Crewe towards Warrington and onwards to Lancaster Group stations. The grippers on the Manchester - Crewe stretch would be annoyed would they not ?

Regards,
Zod

 

[glynn80]

Hi John,
Something which perplexes me is that map GM allows you to go to Crewe and then catch a train to Lancaster Groups from there. Surely this could constitute something similar to "doubling back" ? It seems to me that you are allowed to travel "further away" from Lancaster Group by travelling to Crewe and then permitted to "return back" up the line from Crewe towards Warrington and onwards to Lancaster Group stations. The grippers on the Manchester - Crewe stretch be would be annoyed would they not ?

Regards,
Zod

If you were taking the route John listed, you would be required to travel to Crewe via Stockport and Wilmslow. As you correctly state, catching any of the services via Warrington Bank Quay and Earlestown would constitute doubling back and would thus not be classed as permitted routes.

So just to clarify:

Map NW permits you to travel, Lancaster to Preston to Bolton (also via Wigan) to Manchester

MH+NC permits you to travel, Lancaster to Preston to Blackburn to Bolton to Manchester. It also permits Lancaster to Hellifield to Blackburn to Bolton to Manchester.

GM+NC permits you to travel, Lancaster to Preston to Bolton (also via Wigan) to Manchester. It also permits Lancaster to Preston to Wigan to Warrington (also via Earlestown) to Crewe (also via Runcorn) to Wilmslow to Manchester (also via Stockport).

 

[tony_mac]

The routeing guide is full of such longer routes - and it is often the quickest and easiest thing to do.
The nationalrail journey planner and thetrainline are both happy that this one is valid.
It might cause problems on the train, but it seems that most of the time an explanation of the route is all that is required.

 

[yorkie]

Hi John,
Something which perplexes me is that map GM allows you to go to Crewe and then catch a train to Lancaster Groups from there. Surely this could constitute something similar to "doubling back" ? It seems to me that you are allowed to travel "further away" from Lancaster Group by travelling to Crewe and then permitted to "return back" up the line from Crewe towards Warrington and onwards to Lancaster Group stations. The grippers on the Manchester - Crewe stretch would be annoyed would they not ?

Regards,
Zod

No-one is suggesting that a valid route on a Lancaster to Manchester ticket would be to go through Warrington, to Crewe, then back to Warrington, to Manchester! So no, there is no suggestion of doubling-back being required.

Although the Manchester-Lancaster ticket is valid via Crewe, there is no need to show it between Warrington and Crewe in this case anyway as the OP holds a London to Manchester ticket, which is valid as far north as Warrington anyway. So at Warrington he can change from one ticket to the other.

If the train called at Crewe he'd be doubly valid between Warrington and Crewe anyway.

 

[General Zod]

Thanks Yorkie !
I don't think I've made myself very clear. When I meant "something similar to doubling back" I did not mean "doubling back" in the true and literal sense. It seems to me that Manchester - Lancaster via Crewe actually entails going further away from your destination point before returning back again. A similar route would be say Banbury to Cardiff. You could go two ways :

a. Banbury - Oxford - Didcot Parkway - Cardiff

b. Banbury - Oxford - Reading - Cardiff

The route via Reading is a different fare and like the Crewe analogy it seems as if you are actually travelling away from Cardiff ( when doing the Oxford- Reading stretch) before "returning in the right direction" when going from Reading to Cardiff.

 

[John @ home]

When I meant "something similar to doubling back" I did not mean "doubling back" in the true and literal sense. It seems to me that Manchester - Lancaster via Crewe actually entails going further away from your destination point before returning back again.

It seems to me that you are trying to introduce the concept of a "reasonable" route. This used to exist on the railways in Britain but was deliberately abolished in the 1990s.

It was replaced by the concept of "permitted" routes which, it is said, are precisely defined by the National Routeing Guide. Given this contract-based situation, it is not surprising that people use the "permitted" routes to save themselves money.

And we are still learning. Only last week, I learned on this forum how to save myself £5.90 every time I need a walk-on fare from a West Yorkshire suburb to a London suburb. I need to make that journey once or twice a month and Advance fares are not always available, so that discovery is valuable to me. The saving uses a ticket valid to travel 25 miles north before turning south on a roughly parallel route.

Anomalous? Yes. Perverse? Sometimes. But that is the price the railway industry pays for replacing "reasonable" routes with contract-based "permitted" routes.

John

 

[General Zod]

Thanks a lot John. I'm afraid I was under the false impression that grippers relied more heavily on the "reasonable route" as opposed to "NRG permitted route" criteria when concluding if your journey route was valid or not.

Zod

 

[yorkie]

Thanks a lot John. I'm afraid I was under the false impression that grippers relied more heavily on the "reasonable route" as opposed to "NRG permitted route" criteria when concluding if your journey route was valid or not.

Zod

I think most guards accept all reasonable routes. So if a route seems reasonable, but isn't strictly permitted, it'll still be accepted by the vast majority of guards. If the guard thinks it is unreasonable then they'd need to check the RG to determine if it is permitted or not, which could take a long time and would probably involve contacting their Control asking someone there to look at the Routeing Guide.

What a guard cannot do is make up rules like "you are going away from your destination" which are not in the RG and then claim a ticket is invalid as a result of their own made-up rules based on their own interpretation of reasonableness. Those days were abolished at the time of privatisation.