Window Hammers - do they still really exist?

[yorksrob]

Going by Ufton Nervet, Grayrigg and any number of other derailments it's safer to have unbreakable windows. I can only think of Ladbroke Grove where it was an advantage to have breakable windows, which was the point I was making. Plenty of accidents could have had less serious outcomes for the passengers/crew if there were unbreakable windows (perhaps two or maybe even four less fatalities at Ufton Nervet for instance). Only one might have been made worse for not having them. Therefore there is quite a strong argument for getting rid of them (especially as OL Leigh points out there are normally any number of alternative exits available).



I think I'd have found an alternative method of commute in his situation hock: that's amazingly bad luck!

I can see that unbreakable windows are probably the best thing in the majority of cases (at least when diesel traction is superceded! )

Part of me still likes the idea of having something to smash and break in the event of an emergency. Perhaps it's human nature!

 

[O L Leigh]

Part of me still likes the idea of having something to smash and break in the event of an emergency. Perhaps it's human nature!

In the event of an emergency please do smash and break all you like. When you're done smashing and breaking, please make your way to the vestibule and pull the door emergency egress handle or to the gangway ends to effect your escape. You'll find it a lot easier to get out that way.

O L Leigh

 

[yorksrob]

In the event of an emergency please do smash and break all you like. When you're done smashing and breaking, please make your way to the vestibule and pull the door emergency egress handle or to the gangway ends to effect your escape. You'll find it a lot easier to get out that way.

O L Leigh

Well, it's easy for you to be flippant - I've never been in a train crash (I don't know if you've been in one either). I can sort of imagine being in a carriage with a fire breaking out and having to get out quickly. In the event of the carriage not concertenering, Mk 1 doors would be easy to open, but I've not noticed egress handels on modern trains. Perhaps I should look more closely tomorrow.

 

[O L Leigh]

In the event of a smash, your precious Mk1 will have been reduced to matchwood and almost everyone inside killed (the Cannon Street bufferstop collision was at quite a modest speed but look at the loss of life due it being predominantly Mk1 slamdoor stock), so making comparisons is meaningless. You're far more likely to survive a rail crash in a modern train, even if you do have to work out how to release the power doors manually.

Incidentally, the only reason why the Ladbroke Grove collision resulted in a fire was because of the speed of impact in a head-on collision between two diesel trains. The lessons learned as a consequence of this accident have been incorporated into signalling systems to try to prevent any repeat. Perhaps it's tempting fate, but no other similar incidents have happened since.

The shortcomings you report are nothing to do with the safety systems fitted to new stock but are due to your unfamiliarity with them. If you took time to read the safety notices you would be familiar with the safety features built into the train (more so if you paid more attention in the door vestibules).

...with respect.

O L Leigh

 

[oversteer]

TGVs still have them.

I was in coach 18 of a Eurostar recently, and sat next to a window that had a metal bar across it, along with instructions to smash the first layer with the hammer, then the second layer, then remove the bar and enlarge the escape hole with the bar...

 

[yorksrob]

In the event of a smash, your precious Mk1 will have been reduced to matchwood and almost everyone inside killed (the Cannon Street bufferstop collision was at quite a modest speed but look at the loss of life due it being predominantly Mk1 slamdoor stock), so making comparisons is meaningless. You're far more likely to survive a rail crash in a modern train, even if you do have to work out how to release the power doors manually.

Incidentally, the only reason why the Ladbroke Grove collision resulted in a fire was because of the speed of impact in a head-on collision between two diesel trains. The lessons learned as a consequence of this accident have been incorporated into signalling systems to try to prevent any repeat. Perhaps it's tempting fate, but no other similar incidents have happened since.

The shortcomings you report are nothing to do with the safety systems fitted to new stock but are due to your unfamiliarity with them. If you took time to read the safety notices you would be familiar with the safety features built into the train (more so if you paid more attention in the door vestibules).

...with respect.

O L Leigh

The point about Mk 1 doors would be the same for any slam door carriage - but for the fact that Mk 2's and 3's tend to have central locking and I wouldn't know where to begin with getting through that.

A wet behind the ears rail enthusiast I may be, but before I genuflect to your greater superiority I have to point out that somebody very experienced in train safety and carriage design obviously saw a need to include window hammers at some stage otherwise they wouldn't have included them would they.

I'm sure I've been on 156's that still have them recently.

 

[ainsworth74]

I wouldn't know where to begin with getting through that.

I'd suggest starting, as with all doors on trains, with the emergency door release On Mk3s I think it's located centrally above each door, smash cover and pull handle in the direction indicated. All the emergency external door releases on trains are green and tend to be located either above or next to the door and you do the same thing, smash then pull handle in direction indicated.

 

[yorksrob]

I'd suggest starting, as with all doors on trains, with the emergency door release On Mk3s I think it's located centrally above each door, smash cover and pull handle in the direction indicated. All the emergency external door releases on trains are green and tend to be located either above or next to the door and you do the same thing, smash then pull handle in direction indicated.

I'll take a closer look next time I'm in one

 

[valenta]

Am I right in thinking Northern pacers still have them?

 

[michael769]

All the emergency external door releases on trains are green and tend

This is only guaranteed to be the case on modern stock that was built after the UN/EU standard was adopted in the UK. On many older units the release is red in colour (cl156s spring to mind as an example - their door release looks the same as the passcom handle).

But the principle is the same all power (or centrally locked doors) will have a clearly labelled handle on or beside the doors. AFAIK all the labels have now been replaced in UN/EU standard phosphorescent green and should glow in the dark in the event that the lights fail.

 

[M60lad]

Not to sure whether Northern's Pacers still have hammers as they've all seem to have had an additional film type tint put over the windows unless that's the laminate, but I cant say I've ever noticed hammers on a Pacer(142) to be honest.

As for Northern's 156s I can actually say that most if not all of them have had their hammers removed and the housing blacked out

Also I've noticed that East Midlands Trains refurbished 158s have had their hammers took out as well, as I noticed this when I was on my way home from Liverpool Lime Street last night

 

[michael769]

Not to sure whether Northern's Pacers still have hammers as they've all seem to have had an additional film type tint put over the windows unless that's the laminate, but I cant say I've ever noticed hammers on a Pacer(142) to be honest.

The laminations are internal to the structure of the glass and cannot be seen. The only visible indication of laminated glass is the manufacturers label. The film is most likely to be the anti-vandalism coating.

To be honest the doors on paces are particularly weak and would most likely open themselves in a collision and if they did not, it would not take much effort to force them open.

 

[M60lad]

Regarding doors on pacers I thought they couldn't be opened easily these days due to the waistlocks which lock them into place and stop them from opening when the train is on the move

 

[142094]

The laminations are internal to the structure of the glass and cannot be seen. The only visible indication of laminated glass is the manufacturers label. The film is most likely to be the anti-vandalism coating.

The film will be an anti scratch measure (sometimes referred to as scratchiti), which is apparently quite effective.

 

[scotsman]

Well, it's easy for you to be flippant - I've never been in a train crash (I don't know if you've been in one either). I can sort of imagine being in a carriage with a fire breaking out and having to get out quickly. In the event of the carriage not concertenering, Mk 1 doors would be easy to open, but I've not noticed egress handels on modern trains. Perhaps I should look more closely tomorrow.

I bet you'd never remember the secondary door locking...

 

[yorksrob]

I bet you'd never remember the secondary door locking...

I have to confess - I'm not even sure what that is !

 

[island]

I think the HEX still has them.

 

[scotsman]

I have to confess - I'm not even sure what that is !

A £5 B&Q bolt across the top of the door. It's meant to prevent the door opening on the move, even though the door catch mechanism should do that...:roll:

 

[yorksrob]

A £5 B&Q bolt across the top of the door. It's meant to prevent the door opening on the move, even though the door catch mechanism should do that...:roll:

I've come up against the door catch mechanism a few times but never anything at the top of a (non CDL) slam door (which isn't to say that it didn't exist) sorry !

 

[142094]

Am I right in thinking Northern pacers still have them?

I don't think they do any more. Funnily enough I was on a 142 between Lancaster and Leeds a few weeks back. A chap got off at Morecambe and was asking the guard a few questions. Eventually got round to how to get out in an emergency, as there were no hammers on the train.

TBF a lot of them were knicked and the little sods used to have great fun putting windows out with them.

 

[Orange Donkey]

As far as I'm aware all the hammers have now been removed from Northern units but as a passenger stuck on a unit last year proved a fire extinguisher smashing through the window is as effective as the little hammer.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Hammers are fitted in every coach in East Coast's 225 fleet. They're above windows in the middle of each side of each coach, under the overhead parcel shelf.

Here's some pictures I took today
(looking upwards)
(looking towards the window)
(click to enlarge)

 

[Stigy]

SWT removed them a few years ago and blanked off the break-glass units that they were housed in. I'd imagine this was because a shiny red window hammer was too tempting for the little darlings to resist when there were soooo many windows that needed breaking! Also, they were stolen and used to break in to cars etc too...

 

[TGV]

Hammers are fitted in every coach in East Coast's 225 fleet. They're above windows in the middle of each side of each coach, under the overhead parcel shelf.

Here's some pictures I took today
View attachment 11789 (looking upwards)
View attachment 11790 (looking towards the window)
(click to enlarge)

They look like a bolted-on after-thought. Were they in the original Mk4 spec or did it come about sometime after?

 

[talltim]

I presume the vehicles that still have hammers are the ones that haven't had the glass replaced.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I agreee that they look as if they were not a component of the original design but cannot remember reliably whether they were there from the outset, 20 years ago.
To correspond with the position of the hammers in every MkIV coach in EC's fleet, there's a window with the wording 'emergency window' immediately below the hammer. One on each side near the centre of each coach, but I'm unable to comment on the construction of these windows.