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RichmondCommu

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G'day,

The windows on Voyagers and Pendolinos get a really bad press at times on this forum but are the positioning / size of windows really that important? I travel by train a lot and in my experience passengers pay very little attention to the passing countryside. Not only that but safety and the chance of getting a seat are far more of a priority than a panoramic view.

Your views on this would be very much appreciated!

Richmond Commuter.
 
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John55

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G'day,

The windows on Voyagers and Pendolinos get a really bad press at times on this forum but are the positioning / size of windows really that important? I travel by train a lot and in my experience passengers pay very little attention to the passing countryside. Not only that but safety and the chance of getting a seat are far more of a priority than a panoramic view.

Your views on this would be very much appreciated!

Richmond Commuter.
The size and position of windows are important otherwise how do you know it is time to get off the train? Not all trains have public address that works or that can be heard (or sometimes that gives the correct information). Now while many passengers do not look out of the window I do and would very much prefer to continue to do so.

PS The position of the seats relative to the windows probably is the bug bear for most.
 

RichmondCommu

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The size and position of windows are important otherwise how do you know it is time to get off the train? Not all trains have public address that works or that can be heard (or sometimes that gives the correct information). Now while many passengers do not look out of the window I do and would very much prefer to continue to do so.

PS The position of the seats relative to the windows probably is the bug bear for most.
In all fairness Cross Country and Virgin are very good at telling customers where the train will next be stopping at. In my experience the vast majority of passengers are far more interested in; their newspapers, books, Kindles, laptops, tablets, smart phones et al rather than whats going on outside.
 

dubscottie

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In all fairness Cross Country and Virgin are very good at telling customers where the train will next be stopping at. In my experience the vast majority of passengers are far more interested in; their newspapers, books, Kindles, laptops, tablets, smart phones et al rather than whats going on outside.
For me having a window is the main priority.. Thats why I travel by train and not plane! I like to watch the world go by.

For short 20 min trips Ill stand.
 

RichmondCommu

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For me having a window is the main priority.. Thats why I travel by train and not plane! I like to watch the world go by.

For short 20 min trips Ill stand.
Fair enough but I would suggest that you are in the minority and should the transport industry pander to the minority? Not only that but airline style seating (which may not join up with windows) means that you get a seat for journeys of more than 20 minutes!
 

dubscottie

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Fair enough but I would suggest that you are in the minority and should the transport industry pander to the minority? Not only that but airline style seating (which may not join up with windows) means that you get a seat for journeys of more than 20 minutes!
If only the minority want windows get rid altogether! However the first tubes never had windows but they soon released the passengers wanted them even although all they could see was walls!

Ireland has done it.. I book a window seat, I get a window. Nowadays in the UK a window could mean a partition. Started when Mk3's went from 72 to 76 seaters and did not stop.

As for airline seats, like having to stand I don't care as long as its not a long journey!
 

87015

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Watch an IC set filling up at Euston, Padd, Kings X or wherever- the window/table seats will fill up far more quickly than the airline/plastics, almost always. Some minority it seems.
 

Welshman

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For me, being able to look out of the window is an important part of the journey.

During a recent trip over the Settle and Carlisle line, there were some passengers playing computer games or watching videos while the most amazing scenery was unveiling, free of charge, just through the window adjacent to them.

Even on a "non-scenic" route, like Birmingham to Wolverhampton, there's always something to see and take an interest in, and at dusk or early morning there are often fascinating sunsets/rises to enjoy, were it not for the ultra-bright interior lighting we now have to endure, reflecting in the windows.
 

AndyLandy

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the window/table seats will fill up far more quickly than the airline/plastics, almost always. Some minority it seems.
Every time I've travelled by train, the table seats are always the first to go. I've never really noticed any particular bias in favour of window seats though. If anything, people tend to be antisocial and sit in the aisle and leave the window seat unoccupied.

That all said, I personally far prefer to be looking out of the window and watching the world go by than sat staring at the inside of the train.
 

387star

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When Virgin introduced the Voyagers they had a window glazer guide which was effective. Pointed out landmarks and interest spots along the various routes
 

pdq

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Every time I've travelled by train, the table seats are always the first to go.
Am I the only one that tries to avoid tables unless I am with my family? I'd far rather be able to stretch my legs under the seat in front of me than play footsie with a complete stranger.

Out of interest, what increase could there be in the capacity of, say, coach B of a 185 if it was all airline seats?

 

John Webb

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As a number of the replies have indicated, I suspect poor positioning of seats to windows is of particular relevence to most of this Forum's contributors as they do take a greater interest in the passing world than other passengers, particularly if it contains railway-related material!
I, being retired, don't travel much by train, but I certainly like to look out of the windows at the very least to see what's changed since I last passed that way, and find the non-alignment of seats and windows can be irksome.
 

317666

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Whilst the windows on the Pendolinos are quite small, those seats which are aligned with them are aligned quite well - for instance a bay of 4 won't have a random pillar in the middle of it. Voyagers have larger windows but the alignment is much worse, you get bays of 4 with a random pillar in the middle of the window for instance.
 

AndyLandy

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Yeah, I never got what all the fuss was about Pendolino windows. Sure, they're smaller than Voyager ones, but if you're in an actual window seat, you can get a perfectly decent view of the countryside passing you by.
 

LE Greys

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Ireland has done it.. I book a window seat, I get a window. Nowadays in the UK a window could mean a partition. Started when Mk3's went from 72 to 76 seaters and did not stop.
It was actually worse with 72 seats. Eight windows and nine seating bays on each side, you can understand why they did not line up in the middle. BR received a lot of complaints, but it actually got better when airline seats were introduced in TGSes, and the TSes rapidly followed suit.
 

route:oxford

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It was actually worse with 72 seats. Eight windows and nine seating bays on each side, you can understand why they did not line up in the middle. BR received a lot of complaints, but it actually got better when airline seats were introduced in TGSes, and the TSes rapidly followed suit.
Airline seats every time. I don't want to sit facing a random.

As to window seats, even if you don't have a window right next to you, it's not as if you can't see out the other 16 or so carriage windows.

Perhaps, to meet the needs of enthusiasts, the seats without a window should have an LCD screen on the back of the seat in front with a CCTV view of the world outside.

Rear-view would probably be best to avoid traumatising people with leapers.
 
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Am I the only one that tries to avoid tables unless I am with my family? I'd far rather be able to stretch my legs under the seat in front of me than play footsie with a complete stranger.
I fully agree there. if I'm travelling alone or with 1 other person I always go for airline style seats, I personally believe that when a lone traveller has a whole table to his/herself is being incredibly selfish, I mean what if a family gets on board? do you really deprive them of their right to be together because you simply want a table to yourself? (this used to happen a lot to me, I board the train with my family or some friends, we want a table and we can't get one because of some smug *** who thinks that they are important enough to have a whole table to themselves while splitting up a group who really needs it).


I personally make a bee-line for the airline seats, especially when they line up to windows, I just find them more cosy, more private and just nicer than table seats and I can't see why lone travellers have to go for a table seat if its available, why not save the table for groups and sit in an airline seat?

[/rant]
 

trentside

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I'm also someone who goes for airline seats with a window, as I enjoy taking in the view - especially when travelling over unfamiliar lines, though I can see much of interest on journeys I take regularly.

On the table issue, I normally only sit at tables when travelling in a group of 3+ people, but if I have work to do and a table is free I'll take it in preference to an airline seat. I'd happily move if a group of people were wanting to sit together though, and have offered to do so in the past.
 

LE Greys

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I'll take tables on quiet trains, unless it's likely they will get really busy. But then, I tend to have a lot of papers with me, and it's useful to have something other than one of those tiny tray things to work on. If it does get busy, I might move (generally via the buffet on expresses) unless someone else decides to sit at the same table, which does happen sometimes.

A different kind of Windows (XP) is driving me nuts at the moment, constantly trying to install the same update over and over again.
 

Hydro

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Voyagers/Meridians have great windows, assuming you dodge the pillars. Mk.3's are nice, but the sill is a bit too high for my tastes. Pendolino windows seem worse than they because the train is so claustrophobic in the first place.
 

LE Greys

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Voyagers/Meridians have great windows, assuming you dodge the pillars. Mk.3's are nice, but the sill is a bit too high for my tastes. Pendolino windows seem worse than they because the train is so claustrophobic in the first place.
It's hard to believe that Pendys are actually bigger than MkIVs. Next time you see one at Waverley or Glasgow, just look, it's true both inside and out. The problem is a combination of badly-placed equipment inside (although Voyagers are worse with their 'cleresory'-effect air-con ducting) and the smaller windows that makes them feel smaller.
 

6Gman

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Yeah, I never got what all the fuss was about Pendolino windows. Sure, they're smaller than Voyager ones, but if you're in an actual window seat, you can get a perfectly decent view of the countryside passing you by.
Or the cess when they tilt ... or clouds ...

:)
 
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Yeah, I never got what all the fuss was about Pendolino windows. Sure, they're smaller than Voyager ones, but if you're in an actual window seat, you can get a perfectly decent view of the countryside passing you by.
I think it's possibly because there are so many non-window (or at least highly restricted view) seats. Yes, those with a window are certainly OK but try getting one on an even moderately busy service.

Windows are important in my view - no pun intended! I cant imagine how dull a journey from Euston to Glasgow would be with only a pillar to gaze upon.
 

The 375 King

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The 375s have the balance about right, enough table seats and enough airline seats, all seats have a good window veiw because the train seems well designed. Some other so called premium stock is just a victim of poor design, some designers are not rail users and just swan around in posh cars because they are over paid for the poor job they do
 

4SRKT

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Is this yet another "I assert that only enthusiasts like x and because enthusiasts are vermin then x need not be a consideration for TOCs" thread? If so then it's one of the best yet, the idea that only enthusiasts want to look out of the window! Good Lord!
 

VP185

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Size of the windows are important in terms of crashworthiness.
In the case of the Pendolino, the smaller window, wider window pillars give the vehicles an impressive amount of strength. Grayrigg was proof of that, no windows were broken in the actual incident, if my memory serves me right.
 

dubscottie

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Size of the windows are important in terms of crashworthiness.
In the case of the Pendolino, the smaller window, wider window pillars give the vehicles an impressive amount of strength. Grayrigg was proof of that, no windows were broken in the actual incident, if my memory serves me right.
Windows were broken by ballast flying through them..

The size of the windows has nothing to do with body strength.. Its how it is all put together..

There was a pic in "Modern Railways Europe" a few months back of a pendo driving coach thats body had been ripped open during off loading in Italy.. (the lorry hit a skip or something at slow speed).

I would not call that impressive strength!

I could go on about how 168/170/377 etc are death traps but that is another thread!!
 

CP165

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Windows were broken by ballast flying through them..

The size of the windows has nothing to do with body strength.. Its how it is all put together..

There was a pic in "Modern Railways Europe" a few months back of a pendo driving coach thats body had been ripped open during off loading in Italy.. (the lorry hit a skip or something at slow speed).

I would not call that impressive strength!

I could go on about how 168/170/377 etc are death traps but that is another thread!!
From what I recall only one window was broken, but I can't be 100% sure about that.

Windows are related to structural integrity, because for example a train with no windows is going to be a lot stronger that a train with windows isn't it?

And that pendolino driving car; I didn't see the picture but from what you've said it sounds like it could just be the outer skin thats been ripped off, with virtually no damage to the actual body which is very strong. Also if that was a mainland european pendolino that's not necessarily representative of one built for the UK.

The fact is that the pendolino performed excellently in the Grayrigg derailment with very little damage considering the speed and force of the accident, no carriages ripped apart and only 1 passenger fatality.

 

317666

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One thing that can affect how good the seat/window alignment on modern trains is the requirement for priority seating. If you look at the Class 379s, in the standard class driving car right behind the cab. On each side there is a bay of 4 with an airline pair right behind it. The bay of 4 has a pillar in the middle. If they had been arranged the other way round then they would line up correctly, but then the airline pair of seats, which are priority seats, wouldn't be next to the doorway, which is a requirement I believe.
 
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