Wires down at St Neots (28/03)

[najaB]

Is there a project to do that or is it a piecemeal effort. So with this latest one, will a local replacement instead of a repair take place?

Philip Phlopp is best placed to answer, but I understand it is a project and they are converting headspans to portals at key locations along the ECML.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Neither does the knitting elsewhere on the network. How often do you hear about the WCML or GEML having wiring problems due to the wind? The ECML was wired on the cheap, but they're fixing it.

I wouldn't say the WCML is immune from wind dewirements, especially over the fells.
It is Mk3 OHLE north of Weaver Jn, and while most of it is single cantilevers on twin track, it is headspans on the multiple track sections between Acton Grange and Preston, and around Carlisle and Carstairs-Motherwell.
Maybe the mast spacing was shorter than on the later ECML.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I wouldn't say the WCML is immune from wind dewirements, especially over the fells.
It is Mk3 OHLE north of Weaver Jn, and while most of it is single cantilevers on twin track, it is headspans on the multiple track sections between Acton Grange and Preston, and around Carlisle and Carstairs-Motherwell.
Maybe the mast spacing was shorter than on the later ECML.

Also headspans north of Preston where there are 3 track sections/passing loops - right outside my UK home for example.

 

[najaB]

I wouldn't say the WCML is immune from wind dewirements, especially over the fells.

Oh, I agree it isn't immune, but it is a rarity as compared to the ECML.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I wouldn't say the WCML is immune from wind dewirements, especially over the fells.

Oh, I agree it isn't immune, but it is a rarity as compared to the ECML.

Last time I remember was in the 80s. They came down south of Lancaster and north of Preston. They coped with diesel drags and then the loco would run light engine back to Lancaster. Class 40s, 47s, and 31s galore. Wonderful.

 

[Phil.]

Yes, it was cheap and could be installed quickly and easily. SR didn't have much spare cash and they made the best of the money that was available to improve their services. That doesn't make it a sensible choice for the rest of the country.

It isn't a good choice for the rest of the country but, as I stated, " for an outer suburban service.....".
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The whole reason third rail was installed was because of SR companies being el cheapo! OHLE was installed first on the Crystal Palace route and they got rid in favour of cheap third rail. Wires elsewhere don't get blown down every time it gets windy. Last time I checked windy Scotland, the Alps, other main lines and high speed lines around the world deal with it quite well. No reason why the TOCs couldn't run more ghost trains either, NR isn't exactly rolling around in surplus. Like said above the ECML, GWML and MML was knitted cheap by BR because of financial starvation.

It's not the TOC's responsibilities to look after the running lines. It's the owners (N.R.). That's why TOCs have track charges levied against them.
The old S.R. abandoned overhead wires because the system was too complicated for their use which was a suburban railway.

 

[NSE]

Yeah but what do you propose for the ECML? In this instance it's an outer suburban service that's bought the wires down. Do you want OHLE on two tracks for Inter City services and two third rail ones for the commuter ones? The three big third rail operators operate over an area of the country where there isn't any InterCity services running long distance over the same tracks (ignoring XC on SWT metals and SWT's Exeter services). The ECML, GEML and the WCML are all AC electrified and have both InterCity and Outer Suburban services sharing the tracks.

 

[najaB]

It isn't a good choice for the rest of the country but, as I stated, " for an outer suburban service.....".

It's not even really a good choice for an outer suburban service, truth be told. Electrical losses are higher, it requires more distribution equipment and it's less safe.

 

[Bald Rick]

It might be **** but it doesn't get blown down every time that the weather gets windy. For an outer suburban service like most of what was B.R.'s southern region it's ideal. It suffers during ice and snow because el cheapo Network Rail won't pay for ghost trains to be run as in the days of black and white and leaves are a problem on any line with trees near them because the trees are never trimmed back like they used to be. Have a look at pictures of line-sides of fifty plus years ago. You'll see no trees and bushes adjacent to the line. There was a reason why the southern railway stuck to third rail.

Network Rail will happily pay for ice trains overnight. However there aren't enough drivers to drive them. Operators could, of course, cancel a few trains the next day to release enough drivers to operate the ice trains, but apparently it's not that easy.

And the trees are trimmed back - indeed more than they have ever been. However now that steam trains have long since gone, line side fires don't keep the vegetation in check.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's not even really a good choice for an outer suburban service, truth be told. Electrical losses are higher, it requires more distribution equipment and it's less safe.

And it regularly screws up the signalling, and it also makes maintenance work significantly less productive (and thus much more expensive).

 

[GRALISTAIR]

However now that steam trains have long since gone, line side fires don't keep the vegetation in check.

When I was growing up I saw railway men deliberately setting fire to railway embankments etc to keep the vegetation in check. Would not happen now of course.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

When I was growing up I saw railway men deliberately setting fire to railway embankments etc to keep the vegetation in check. Would not happen now of course.

Steam locomotives of course did a good job of that themselves. It's almost certainly an urban myth, but I vagueĺy remember reading about the first heavy maintenance carried out on the Metrolink Bury line where workers turned over soil on the embankments and revealed patches of hot cinders and ashes that had lain dormant for many years since steam services ended on that route.

 

[D1009]

It might be **** but it doesn't get blown down every time that the weather gets windy. For an outer suburban service like most of what was B.R.'s southern region it's ideal. It suffers during ice and snow because el cheapo Network Rail won't pay for ghost trains to be run as in the days of black and white and leaves are a problem on any line with trees near them because the trees are never trimmed back like they used to be. Have a look at pictures of line-sides of fifty plus years ago. You'll see no trees and bushes adjacent to the line. There was a reason why the southern railway stuck to third rail.

OK, if you think 3rd rail is so wonderful, how come you see so little of it in the rest of the world?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

If the SWML from Weymouth-Waterloo was converted to overhead then there'd be no need to worry about what was sent west of Poole. iirc around the Upwey area there's a limit as to what electric trains can be in the area

 

[Philip Phlopp]

If the SWML from Weymouth-Waterloo was converted to overhead then there'd be no need to worry about what was sent west of Poole. iirc around the Upwey area there's a limit as to what electric trains can be in the area

You couldn't send a Class 455, Class 456 or Class 458 though. That's why conversion isn't an urgent priority.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

If the SWML from Weymouth-Waterloo was converted to overhead then there'd be no need to worry about what was sent west of Poole. iirc around the Upwey area there's a limit as to what electric trains can be in the area

Goes through the New Forest - I bet there will be plenty of NIMBYs on that one.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

You couldn't send a Class 455, Class 456 or Class 458 though. That's why conversion isn't an urgent priority.

None of them 3 classes go along there in service anyway (think Woking might be the furthest west along the SWML that they go)

 

[Philip Phlopp]

None of them 3 classes go along there in service anyway (think Woking might be the furthest west along the SWML that they go)

Yes, but converting the route to 25kV without removing the 750V DC would be almost impossibly complicated, so until every unit can operate on 25kV, it's not really a viable option.

 

[najaB]

Yes, but converting the route to 25kV without removing the 750V DC would be almost impossibly complicated...

I thought you'd be up for the challenge. Can't be that hard to immunise against DC and AC at the same time - 'earth' is only relative after all.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I thought you'd be up for the challenge. Can't be that hard to immunise against DC and AC at the same time - 'earth' is only relative after all.

It's easier if it's done on a relatively simple stretch of track, as few signals as possible, as few sets of points as possible, as little equipment as possible to immunise.

The layouts at Waterloo and Clapham Junction would be a nightmare to immunise reliably for both 25kV AC and 750V DC. It can all be done, but it would be a maintenance and logistical nightmare.

 

[ainsworth74]

The layouts at Waterloo and Clapham Junction would be a nightmare to immunise reliably for both 25kV AC and 750V DC. It can all be done, but it would be a maintenance and logistical nightmare.

I must admit I did stand at Clapham Junction once and found myself wondering how the hell they were ever, ever going to convert that to 25kV AC. It just seems like it would be neigh on impossible to do without basically shutting down the entire area whilst it's done...

 

[najaB]

The layouts at Waterloo and Clapham Junction would be a nightmare to immunise reliably for both 25kV AC and 750V DC. It can all be done, but it would be a maintenance and logistical nightmare.

Having seen them, I'm in awe of the fact you guys managed to get them working reliably for one traction current supply, never mind two!

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Having seen them, I'm in awe of the fact you guys managed to get them working reliably for one traction current supply, never mind two!

The praise really belongs to the signalling engineers who put it all together, keep it working and fix it all when there are 'leaks'.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I must admit I did stand at Clapham Junction once and found myself wondering how the hell they were ever, ever going to convert that to 25kV AC. It just seems like it would be neigh on impossible to do without basically shutting down the entire area whilst it's done...

As I am sure I have commented - it would need the mother of all blockades - plenty of notice -and tell commuters to take a 2 week holiday. Far bigger than Crewe in 1985 for logistics.

 

[Bald Rick]

As I am sure I have commented - it would need the mother of all blockades - plenty of notice -and tell commuters to take a 2 week holiday. Far bigger than Crewe in 1985 for logistics.

More like a 2 year holiday...

 

[Philip Phlopp]

As I am sure I have commented - it would need the mother of all blockades - plenty of notice -and tell commuters to take a 2 week holiday. Far bigger than Crewe in 1985 for logistics.

ETCS Level 2 might simplify a part of the operation, but there's not much experience of using it around dual electrified stretches of the network as yet.

If Level 3 can be gotten to work reliably, it could be a bigger help, as it removes track circuits and axle counters from the mix.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

As I am sure I have commented - it would need the mother of all blockades - plenty of notice -and tell commuters to take a 2 week holiday. Far bigger than Crewe in 1985 for logistics.

Would they really have to do it all in one hit, could they not do the "Southern" side separatly from the "SWT" side?

 

[tellytype]

Police in attendance.

What are THEY going to to? Arrest the train? Or issue the wires with a Penalty Notice for Disorder?!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

What are THEY going to to? Arrest the train? Or issue the wires with a Penalty Notice for Disorder?!

Probably someone pulled an emergency egress handle and climbed down onto the track

 

[Joseph_Locke]

As I am sure I have commented - it would need the mother of all blockades - plenty of notice -and tell commuters to take a 2 week holiday. Far bigger than Crewe in 1985 for logistics.

I don't think so.

The biggest items of work will include

• Bridge reconstructions for clearance and parapet compliance - staged, ad-hoc
• track lowerings, drainage and track renewal - ROR
• New main steel - ROR
• Associated signal moves and immunisation - ad hoc ROR and start now for all new works
• SPS and wires - ROR
• Traction distribution - off track
• Section proving - ROR
• Bonding - that might have to wait for a biggish BTET but not necessarily full possessions
• changeover - one weekend

 

[AndrewE]

Steam locomotives of course did a good job of that themselves. It's almost certainly an urban myth, but I vagueĺy remember reading about the first heavy maintenance carried out on the Metrolink Bury line where workers turned over soil on the embankments and revealed patches of hot cinders and ashes that had lain dormant for many years since steam services ended on that route.

That may well have been spontaneous combustion of coal seams where they outcrop.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ter_District_B__Surface_Coal_Resource_Map.pdf
shows that the Bury line goes straight through surface coal, and more coal will be not far below ground outside that area.