Wisbech-March line reopening cost increase to £200m

[yorksrob]

Why should it have been a railway? Other than that there was once a railway line there? Its not like any extra trains can fit into Manchester termini

Simple one that - because Yorksrob says so. Because it fits his worldview that every town over 30,000 people must have a train station and that train station must be in the centre of town. And specifically in Leigh's case because he wants to travel there.

I'm sure he thinks himself as quite the egalitarian, but in reality he's every bit as elitist as the Victorian landowners who demanded their own personal station and to hell with the impact on the wider community.

What an amusing turn this thread has suddenly taken.

We live in an age where accessibility is prized, particularly accessibility to the train network, and yet because I'm arguing that citizens of towns such as Leigh and Wisbeach, which could do with the boost economically, should also enjoy that access, I'm apparently "elitist". Suddenly the good citizens of Leigh and Wisbeach, who pay their taxes as much as anyone else, have their natural and justifiable wish to join the railway system, dismissed as the rantings of a Victorian landowner, no doubt from someone who has always enjoyed the priviledge of access to the railway system. What a cheek. What about their accessibility to the railway network ?

People don't consider bus links as permanent and protected as rail links. And people keep forgetting the fact that the busway from Leigh takes around an hour to get to the centre of Manchester where the train from Atherton takes half the time, Newton even less.

A fast half hourly train service to Manchester would open up a whole range of travel opportunities beyond.

 

[duffield]

...
People don't consider bus links as permanent and protected as rail links.
...

Exactly. Those promoting bus as an alternative never really address this point properly. A bus service can disappear or be re-routed *tomorrow*; train services are pretty much a permanent fixture. All you get from the pro-bus people is 'well, it shouldn't be like that' and some hand waving about bus services being franchised for 10 years or something. But that, at the moment is how it *is*. Unless and until that changes, a bus service for this sort of case (inter-urban rather than intra-urban) will always be *massively* inferior to heavy rail/light rail etc. (in addition to the other reasons).
That is *not* to say that every case for a reopening stacks up, or is the best priority compared to other schemes; but the 'permanence' issue should be see as a very significant factor.

 

[tbtc]

Suddenly the good citizens of Leigh and Wisbeach, who pay their taxes as much as anyone else, have their natural and justifiable wish to join the railway system, dismissed as the rantings of a Victorian landowner, no doubt from someone who has always enjoyed the priviledge of access to the railway system. What a cheek. What about their accessibility to the railway network ?

So everyone who pays tax has a human right to a train station in their village?

(or we could just focus heavy rail on the larger places where there's sufficient demand to justify more capacity than just a bus?)

A bus service can disappear or be re-routed *tomorrow*; train services are pretty much a permanent fixture. All you get from the pro-bus people is 'well, it shouldn't be like that' and some hand waving about bus services being franchised for 10 years or something

We can justify spending hundreds of millions of pounds on bringing heavy rail to a relatively small relatively rural place, but we can't put a requirement in the franchise to pay for a bus link (with through fares, guaranteed connections etc)?

 

[berwicksfinest]

What an amusing turn this thread has suddenly taken.

We live in an age where accessibility is prized, particularly accessibility to the train network, and yet because I'm arguing that citizens of towns such as Leigh and Wisbeach, which could do with the boost economically, should also enjoy that access, I'm apparently "elitist". Suddenly the good citizens of Leigh and Wisbeach, who pay their taxes as much as anyone else, have their natural and justifiable wish to join the railway system, dismissed as the rantings of a Victorian landowner, no doubt from someone who has always enjoyed the priviledge of access to the railway system. What a cheek. What about their accessibility to the railway network ?

People don't consider bus links as permanent and protected as rail links. And people keep forgetting the fact that the busway from Leigh takes around an hour to get to the centre of Manchester where the train from Atherton takes half the time, Newton even less.

A fast half hourly train service to Manchester would open up a whole range of travel opportunities beyond.

As being one of these residence and a Train Driver, Do I want to see the Rail link re-instated ?? NO I don't .

As a flight of fantasy it would be a total white elephant, and if there's is such a surplus of funding perhaps electrification of the Ely - Peterborough route would provide better value, replacement of semiphores at Manea and Whittlesea ?? The list goes on and on.

 

[yorksrob]

So everyone who pays tax has a human right to a train station in their village?

(or we could just focus heavy rail on the larger places where there's sufficient demand to justify more capacity than just a bus?)



We can justify spending hundreds of millions of pounds on bringing heavy rail to a relatively small relatively rural place, but we can't put a requirement in the franchise to pay for a bus link (with through fares, guaranteed connections etc)?

As someone who studied Geography, I'm aware that there are differences internationally in how different settlements are designated.

But Leigh Lancs and Wisbech - "villages" - really ?

 

[yorksrob]

As being one of these residence and a Train Driver, Do I want to see the Rail link re-instated ?? NO I don't .

As a flight of fantasy it would be a total white elephant, and if there's is such a surplus of funding perhaps electrification of the Ely - Peterborough route would provide better value, replacement of semiphores at Manea and Whittlesea ?? The list goes on and on.

I have to say, I disagree entirely with your post. You are a resident of Wisbech and a train driver which leads me to suspect the following:

1) you are a motorist who drives to work.
2) You have the benefit of very cheap and easy public transport once you have driven to your railhead.

Given the above, why do you think that your fellow residents would not benefit substantially from fast and direct train services to Cambridge and beyond ?

 

[berwicksfinest]

I have to say, I disagree entirely with your post. You are a resident of Wisbech and a train driver which leads me to suspect the following:

1) you are a motorist who drives to work.
2) You have the benefit of very cheap and easy public transport once you have driven to your railhead.

Given the above, why do you think that your fellow residents would not benefit substantially from fast and direct train services to Cambridge and beyond ?

I do drive to work because of one reason only this week my shift started at 01.55 there isn't many forms of public transport running at that time of day.
Once at my railhead my train is usually there or means of onward travel

In answer to your question, NO what makes you think all the residents of Wisbech work in Cambridge (or beyond) ?? Have you ever been to Wisbech, are you aware of the local residents and the places of employment ??
As I have said before if you cannot fill the excel to Peterborough, or the Stagecoach to March or Norfolk Green why do you think Wisbech warrants a rail link?
There are more than enough projects more deserving

 

[yorksrob]

I do drive to work because of one reason only this week my shift started at 01.55 there isn't many forms of public transport running at that time of day.
Once at my railhead my train is usually there or means of onward travel

In answer to your question, NO what makes you think all the residents of Wisbech work in Cambridge (or beyond) ?? Have you ever been to Wisbech, are you aware of the local residents and the places of employment ??
As I have said before if you cannot fill the excel to Peterborough, or the Stagecoach to March or Norfolk Green why do you think Wisbech warrants a rail link?
There are more than enough projects more deserving

I would suggest that you also drive to work because there is no public transport alternative.

I never suggested that all the Wisbech residents work in Cambridge. Clearly they wouldn't, given the current transport options. I'm merely suggesting that given Cambridge is one of the main employment centre in the region, it might benefit the town to have a rail link to it.

 

[tbtc]

As being one of these residence and a Train Driver, Do I want to see the Rail link re-instated ?? NO I don't .

As a flight of fantasy it would be a total white elephant

I have to say, I disagree entirely with your post. You are a resident of Wisbech and a train driver

It's tough to know who to believe here - the railway professional who actually lives in Wisbech and understands local demands, or the outsider with a fixation for re-opening heavy rail lines to small rural places...

 

[6Gman]

As a general observation, I think people thinking of going to a place which they are not familiar with using public transport will feel relatively confident if they are going to an airport or railway station as they are both reasonably reliable and have information displays. Many would expect to complete their journey by taxi. The problem with buses is even when they appear on an information display, they frequently dont turn up with no explanation (at least in West Yorkshire) and are rarely disability compliant. Railway stations tend to be well known in terms of location.

Aren't most (all ?) service buses disability compliant these days? More so than trains in fact.

 

[6Gman]

Same argument goes for Ipswich, Northampton, Yeovil, Stafford etc etc etc - so why is Leigh any different to those? The stations in those towns aren't in the town centre - they are on the edge of at best.

Stafford station is a few minutes walk from the town centre. Ten at most.

 

[Clayton]

It's tough to know who to believe here - the railway professional who actually lives in Wisbech and understands local demands, or the outsider with a fixation for re-opening heavy rail lines to small rural places...

Or you could look to the future and make it easier for people to live in Wisbech and work in places like Cambridge that have good well paying jobs

 

[yorksrob]

It's tough to know who to believe here - the railway professional who actually lives in Wisbech and understands local demands, or the outsider with a fixation for re-opening heavy rail lines to small rural places...

Yes, because someone who drives to work and gets heavily discounted rail travel is precisely the person to know the needs of everyday transport users who have to struggle with over-priced, inadequate bus services.

 

[Meerkat]

Or you could look to the future and make it easier for people to live in Wisbech and work in places like Cambridge that have good well paying jobs

That would be subsidising the well paid to get bigger houses whilst pricing the poorer paid people of Wisbech out of the housing market in their own town. Is that a good idea?

 

[A0wen]

Stafford town centre is a few minutes walk from the town centre. Ten at most.

You missed the point.

Yorksrob's view was stations should be in the centre, using Leigh as his justification. My view is there's no evidence a town centre station sees higher usage than one where it isn't. Particularly true when the majority of people don't live in the town centre - which I suspect in Stafford's case they don't.

 

[Aictos]

Yes, because someone who drives to work and gets heavily discounted rail travel is precisely the person to know the needs of everyday transport users who have to struggle with over-priced, inadequate bus services.

The main point is that they live locally so have a far better idea then someone who doesn't live locally regardless of their employer.

If existing bus services are not full and standing then surely that's enough to show that direct Wisbech train services do have a very poor business case and that instead of wasting time and energy on reinstating a train that carries a bare handful of passengers, I believe improved bus services that have connections with existing rail services at March, Ely and Cambridge North is far far better for local residents.

 

[yorksrob]

The main point is that they live locally so have a far better idea then someone who doesn't live locally regardless of their employer.

If existing bus services are not full and standing then surely that's enough to show that direct Wisbech train services do have a very poor business case and that instead of wasting time and energy on reinstating a train that carries a bare handful of passengers, I believe improved bus services that have connections with existing rail services at March, Ely and Cambridge North is far far better for local residents.

Or perhaps bus services are poorly used because they can't provide the same quality as a train service.

Just because someone lives in an area, doesn't necessarily give them an insight into what residents who don't have access to personal transport need, or on what opportunities they're missing out on - particularly if they don't have to rely on public transport themselves.

 

[Aictos]

Or perhaps bus services are poorly used because they can't provide the same quality as a train service.

Just because someone lives in an area, doesn't necessarily give them an insight into what residents who don't have access to personal transport need, or on what opportunities they're missing out on - particularly if they don't have to rely on public transport themselves.

Then improve the bus links, its not rocket science...

A much improved bus frequency that connects to existing train services and reasonable fares that are not expensive would do far more for local connections then any rail link would.

 

[yorksrob]

Then improve the bus links, its not rocket science...

A much improved bus frequency that connects to existing train services and reasonable fares that are not expensive would do far more for local connections then any rail link would.

Well, they improved bus links from Leigh and guess what - it still takes twice as long to get from Leigh to central Manchester than the train for an equivalent distance. It still isn't as good for onward connections to the rest of the country as the train is.

Some people on here seem to find it difficult to grasp that the train is just better suited for medium to long distance journeys.

 

[class26]

Then improve the bus links, its not rocket science...

A much improved bus frequency that connects to existing train services and reasonable fares that are not expensive would do far more for local connections then any rail link would.

The problem is a bus will always be a bus. I know many people who will simply never consider travel by bus but given the option of a train will take it.

 

[Meerkat]

The problem is a bus will always be a bus. I know many people who will simply never consider travel by bus but given the option of a train will take it.

That is not our problem. The taxpayer should not fund snobbishness

 

[yorksrob]

That is not our problem. The taxpayer should not fund snobbishness

The taxpayer should fund the correct transport solution for the job. For medium to long distance journeys to and from a town the size of Wisbech, that solution is the train.

 

[class26]

The taxpayer should fund the correct transport solution for the job. For medium to long distance journeys to and from a town the size of Wisbech, that solution is the train.

Depends how seriously you take modal shift ?

 

[Meerkat]

The taxpayer should fund the correct transport solution for the job. For medium to long distance journeys to and from a town the size of Wisbech, that solution is the train.

Why? It’s not a very big town

 

[Aictos]

Well, they improved bus links from Leigh and guess what - it still takes twice as long to get from Leigh to central Manchester than the train for an equivalent distance. It still isn't as good for onward connections to the rest of the country as the train is.

Some people on here seem to find it difficult to grasp that the train is just better suited for medium to long distance journeys.

And some people find it difficult to grasp that a train isn't always the answer and especially when the business case for providing a rail service is so poor, they would struggle to fill a single Class 153.

Improved bus links are perfectly acceptable especially if done right, Dunstable is similar to Wisbech and doesn't have a direct railway service yet has a pretty good bus service to Luton as its nearest railhead and that is what Wisbech could do using March as a railhead.

 

[yorksrob]

Depends how seriously you take modal shift ?

Indeed. You're certainly more likely to see modal shift to a train service than a bus over such distances.

Why? It’s not a very big town

It's over 30k, which is enough to justify a railway station.

And some people find it difficult to grasp that a train isn't always the answer and especially when the business case for providing a rail service is so poor, they would struggle to fill a single Class 153.

Improved bus links are perfectly acceptable especially if done right, Dunstable is similar to Wisbech and doesn't have a direct railway service yet has a pretty good bus service to Luton as its nearest railhead and that is what Wisbech could do using March as a railhead.

Really. Where is this evidence that a service would struggle to fill a 153 ?

The population of Tweedbank is around 2k and Galashiels 14k, yet the Borders line certainly wouldn't struggle to fill a 153.

We've had "new railways shouldn't be long rural routes" ok, Wisbech is short.

We've had "new railways shouldn't go to the middle of nowhere". Ok, Wisbech is a town of 30k.

We've had "new railways should link an area with need with a major employment centre" ok, Wisbech is a market town with limited public transport options, Cambridge is a major employment centre.

Yet "Surprise Surprise" (as Cilla would have said) the usual suspects on here suddenly can't see any justification for a rail link.

The reality is that there are a hardcore of people on here for whom heavy rail will never be the solution, and they will go through whatever contortions of logic it takes to argue against one.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Stafford town centre is a few minutes walk from the town centre. Ten at most.

It's a long time since I've been in Stafford, but my recollection was that the town centre was located precisely AT the town centre. Has it moved away from itself since then?

 

[6Gman]

It's a long time since I've been in Stafford, but my recollection was that the town centre was located precisely AT the town centre. Has it moved away from itself since then?

Good spot! Now corrected.

 

[duffield]

So everyone who pays tax has a human right to a train station in their village?

(or we could just focus heavy rail on the larger places where there's sufficient demand to justify more capacity than just a bus?)



We can justify spending hundreds of millions of pounds on bringing heavy rail to a relatively small relatively rural place, but we can't put a requirement in the franchise to pay for a bus link (with through fares, guaranteed connections etc)?

To address your final point - apparently not. This appears to be impossible for unknown reasons (possibly ideological, due to bus deregulation). I'm just pointing out that that is the current reality and has been for many years. Even if a particular government put some sort of requirement like this in place, it could go away again in the relatively near future. A railway or light railway is seen as and likely to be a permanent fixture.

As far as 'We can justify spending hundreds of millions of pounds on bringing heavy rail to a relatively small relatively rural place', I have been careful to say across multiple posts that I'm not *necessarily* convinced the *particular* schemes under discussion are the highest priority or necessarily justified at all, though Wisbech at 30k I would not really rate as 'small'.

To reiterate, unless there is some sort of sea change in how bus services are regulated and specified, which there is absolutely no sign of, and unless that is achieved with cross-party consensus, which there is also no sign of, and this change is seen to work over a number of years so people have confidence in it, it will always be bus = temporary, train = permanent.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Yorksrob's view was stations should be in the centre, using Leigh as his justification. My view is there's no evidence a town centre station sees higher usage than one where it isn't. Particularly true when the majority of people don't live in the town centre - which I suspect in Stafford's case they don't.

I don't think that's correct about no evidence. I don't know of any systematic studies of how the location of a railway station impacts usage, but it's not hard to find individual examples that seem to show that town centre stations get more custom for comparable levels of rail service. For example:

• Ebbw Value Town (260K people/year) vs Ebbw Vale Parkway (40K) in 2018-19
• Woolwich Arsenal (4.4M excluding DLR) vs Woolwich Dockyard (0.5M) (Yes Woolwich Arsenal gets a few more trains, but not 9 times as many trains!. Also note the WWA figure is for national rail entries/exits so is presumably likely to exclude most DLR interchanges)
• Bromley North (505K) vs Sundridge Park (280K)
• Kingston (5M) vs Norbiton (2.5M)
• Morecambe (200K) vs Bare Lane (140K)