Without additional funding from government there is a real risk to the survival of Eurostar

[BananaRepublic]

For the purposes of EU261, it is irrelevant who you buy your ticket from. It is about who the operating carrier is, i.e. the organisation holding the operating licence.

I agree. I was just pointing out that Ryanair is not only a EU based airline, but also operates a U.K. based airline from the U.K.

Back to the OP.
The merger of Eurostar into Thalys, is called Project Green Speed.
The plan is to merge both rail operators into a single corporate entity, with the primary focus being the interconnection of mainline European cities, in addition to the cross channel links to London.
This was proposed in 2019, agreed and approved in 2020 and was due to come to fruition at some point this year (2021).

 

[SamYeager]

Ryanair formed Ryanair U.K., as a U.K. based subsidiary.

Off topic: I believe this company curently only has one aircraft registered in the UK which is vexing the CAA. There are some rumblings that the CAA may suspend this company's authority to operate if they don't increase the number of UK registered aircraft rather than continuing to use non UK registered aircraft to operate their UK flights.

 

[BananaRepublic]

Off topic: I believe this company curently only has one aircraft registered in the UK........

There are currently 2 registered with more on the way.
A large chunk of Ryanairs fleet has also been re-registered with subsidiaries, Malta Air and Ryanair Sun (Poland), but they all operate across a variety of European routes.
You buy your airline ticket from someone else.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

There are currently 2 registered with more on the way.

I've only got the 2020 book with just G-RUKA listed; what's the second one please?

 

[BananaRepublic]

G-RUKB. Registered a few weeks ago.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

G-RUKB. Registered a few weeks ago.

Thank you.

To get back on topic, I am wondering if anyone has heard anything more about the Eurostar situation?

 

[StephenHunter]

Looking at debt restructuring apparently

Eurostar is in emergency talks with its lenders to avoid collapse as the deadline for the repayment of its £400m debt pile nears.

The operator convinced its banks, which include Santander and France Agricole, to lend it hundreds of millions of pounds. The loan must be paid back by June with an option to extend for 12 months but this would require Eurostar to adhere to strict covenants.

Unfortunately, until the French sort out their Covid situation, passengers won't be coming back.

 

[yorkie]

Regarding the off topic matters, people are welcome to discuss these but please create a new thread in the appropriate forum section to do so, thanks

Thanks to @StephenHunter for getting us back on topic

 

[paul1609]

I went along the Pilgrims Way at Cheriton yesterday on my motorbike, this has a fabulous views of the channel tunnel terminal. Not only did I not see any Eurostars (expected) there were no car shuttles in the terminal in the hour or so I was there. Light Vans transits etc were being loaded on the freight shuttles which were leaving 1/2 to 2/3rds full. Must be having a devastating effect on Channel Tunnel income.

 

[BananaRepublic]

I‘ve quite literally just driven down from the M25/26 on the M20 to Ashford, this morning.

From Maidstone, HGV’s and traffic for the Channel Tunnel is segregated to run on the southeast bound carriageway, with ordinary traffic running in contra flow on the London bound side.
Lots of lorries heading towards the tunnel and Dover in the dedicated lanes (no queuing), but we saw only 2 cars in those lanes, along the whole 20 miles or so. A Spanish register Mercedes B-Class, with 2 men in it (possibly on a work trip or something similar) and a French car with a single male.
Lots of lorries coming up from the coast, but at a guess, fewer than normal.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

With the Eurostar / Thalys merger being postponed, I do wonder whether the strategy might be to let Eurostar flounder and then a deal is done whereby Thalys gets the operating assets ( i.e. the rolling stock, staff, ticketing infrastructure etc ) at a lower cost than would otherwise have been possible...?

 

[DavidCarbonis]

With the Eurostar / Thalys merger being postponed, I do wonder whether the strategy might be to let Eurostar flounder and then a deal is done whereby Thalys gets the operating assets ( i.e. the rolling stock, staff, ticketing infrastructure etc ) at a lower cost than would otherwise have been possible...?

I suspect the primary reason for the postponement on Thalys' side is their own liquidity problems as they've recorded a loss of €170m, making it challenging to buy Eurostar (or justify spending their bailout/loans on buying Eurostar in their respective circumstances).

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I suspect the primary reason for the postponement on Thalys' side is their own liquidity problems as they've recorded a loss of €170m, making it challenging to buy Eurostar (or justify spending their bailout/loans on buying Eurostar in their respective circumstances).

True, but given that SNCF are heavily involved in both...?

 

[DavidCarbonis]

True, but given that SNCF are heavily involved in both...?

Indeed, they are the largest shareholders in both (with SNCB/NMBS having smaller shareholdings in both), but they are effectively operated as open access operators in UK terms. As they are not "incorporated" into a state operator (even if their shares are owned by them), I suspect normal market competition rules apply and any merger would require the regulator(s) to approve it.

There's also the question of whether the shareholders want there to be financial contagion between the two operators - Thalys is intra-schengen and has only recently started requiring cash injections from banks/shareholders/Govts, and could be considered more viable in the short term (with respect to borders, etc).

 

[daodao]

I suspect the primary reason for the postponement on Thalys' side is their own liquidity problems as they've recorded a loss of €170m, making it challenging to buy Eurostar (or justify spending their bailout/loans on buying Eurostar in their respective circumstances).

International rail services in Europe are dying, and the Covid-19 epidemic has accelerated this process and is likely to kill many of them off completely. For example, as of December 2020, Thello, which provided France-Italy trains, has ceased running any services. Eurostar is also affected by Brexit, so from the perspective of Thalys, a merger with it might be unwise.

 

[Aictos]

International rail services in Europe are dying, and the Covid-19 epidemic has accelerated this process and is likely to kill many of them off completely. For example, as of December 2020, Thello, which provided France-Italy trains, has ceased running any services. Eurostar is also affected by Brexit, so from the perspective of Thalys, a merger with it might be unwise.

I wouldn't say international rail services in Europe were dying, if they were then Austrian State Railways/OBB wouldn't be investing in brand new sleeper rolling stock as just one example.

The merger between Thalys and Eurostar I believe will still go ahead but more along the lines of a codeshare operation like airlines do rather then a full merger so it be possible to book a ticket from London to Cologne via Brussels with connection at Brussels guaranteed.

 

[StephenHunter]

International rail services in Europe are dying, and the Covid-19 epidemic has accelerated this process and is likely to kill many of them off completely. For example, as of December 2020, Thello, which provided France-Italy trains, has ceased running any services. Eurostar is also affected by Brexit, so from the perspective of Thalys, a merger with it might be unwise.

Why do you say that they are dying? That's not the experience with Nightjet or Regiojet.

 

[daodao]

Why do you say that they are dying? That's not the experience with Nightjet or Regiojet.

OBB appears to be the main exception in promoting longer-distance international and night trains in Europe, although it also appears to be pruning branch lines (or retaining them solely for tourist summer only/weekend operation).

 

[Aictos]

Why do you say that they are dying? That's not the experience with Nightjet or Regiojet.

Indeed they seem to be doing the opposite and expanding their services.

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

That's not the experience with Nightjet or Regiojet.

Do you mean OBB's Railjet? Regiojet is a Czech open access operator.

 

[StephenHunter]

Do you mean OBB's Railjet? Regiojet is a Czech open access operator.

No, Regiojet. They're running international services to great success.

 

[BahrainLad]

Let’s be serious. The Paris-Brussels-Amsterdam-Cologne triangle is one of the richest economic regions on the planet, there will continue to be a market for high speed rail connections between them until something better comes along (teleportation?)

 

[87015]

No, Regiojet. They're running international services to great success.

By what definition, some summer service using 50p German hand-my-downs spare and zero hours staff badly paid even by Czech standards for no-cost open access?

 

[StephenHunter]

Open access still requires access payment and I was referring to the loading percentages on their Rijeka service. The demand is there.

 

[43096]

Open access still requires access payment and I was referring to the loading percentages on their Rijeka service. The demand is there.

Indeed. When I saw the Rijeka service in Brno last summer it loaded to something like 13 coaches and was absolutely full.

The Prague-Bratislava/Vienna services must be successful as well, or they wouldn't run them.

 

[StephenHunter]

Indeed. When I saw the Rijeka service in Brno last summer it loaded to something like 13 coaches and was absolutely full.

The Prague-Bratislava/Vienna services must be successful as well, or they wouldn't run them.

Nor would the Austrians and Slovakians be selling Split tickets this year.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Cross-border rail services are in a precarious situation, exacerbated by Covid.
EU competition rules mean markets are no longer cosy monopolies or protected joint services.
More restrictive national taxation and subsidy rules also mean you can't easily mix domestic and international services (as we have never done here).
The open access operators mentioned above are niche operators looking at specific flows, and none are guaranteed to thrive or even survive.
The threat before Covid was domestic high-speed competition from the EU majors (Trenitalia in France, SNCF in Spain, Italo in Italy etc).
All transport operators are on their knees with Covid and the restrictions on travel, and all are in increasing hock to their state owners to a greater or lesser degree.
I wouldn't be at all confident of the survival of any of these open access cross-border services long term.
Retrenchment seems to be the order of the day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think Eurostar is a bit different, as it's of strategic importance to the UK. If it failed, the UK Government would set up a replacement.

 

[daodao]

Cross-border rail services are in a precarious situation, exacerbated by Covid.

I agree, which is why Eurostar may not survive.

Eurostar is a bit different, as it's of strategic importance to the UK. If it failed, the UK Government would set up a replacement.

It is NOT of strategic importance to the UK, particularly post Brexit. If Eurostar failed, it is brave (in the Yes, Minister sense) to assume that the UK Government would set up a replacement.

It is sobering to note the diminution/extinction of cross-border rail services elsewhere in Europe, particularly where states have fragmented, e.g. in the former USSR and Yugoslavia, and there is less need to travel across the newly created borders.

 

[Hey 3]

I agree, which is why Eurostar may not survive.

It is is of strategic importance to the UK, particularly post Brexit. If Eurostar failed, it is not so brave (in the Yes, Minister sense) to assume that the UK Government would set up a replacement.

It is sobering to note the diminution/extinction of cross-border rail services elsewhere in Europe, particularly where states have fragmented, e.g. in the former USSR and Yugoslavia, and there less need to travel across the newly created borders.

International travel is of strategic importance and there is demand for international travel(as shown with the Prague to Bratislava? sleeper).