WMR/TfW only London-Manchester ticket: Which Trains is it Valid on?

[DynamicSpirit]

I've been trying to find a cheap-ish way of getting from London to Oxenholme (direct Avanti fare = far too expensive), and while looking up indirect routes and fares using the Avanti West Coast journey planner, I stumbled across that you can buy a WMR/TfW only super-off-peak ticket for £35 (as per screenshot). That seems reasonable - I could do that and then buy a separate Manchester-Oxenholme ticket.

But - the schedule the journey planner offers me (on a Monday) is this:
Euston 11:15 -> Rugby 12:36
Rugby 12:42 -> Crewe 14:04
Crewe 14:30 -> Manchester 15:13

This raises a couple of questions: The Euston-Rugby and Rugby-Crewe trains appear to be LNWR trains, not WMR trains. So does that mean you can use the supposedly WMR ticket on LNWR? And if that's the case, why would the scheduler have me change at Rugby? The train it puts me on at Rugby is from Euston, leaving 11:46, so it would seem to make better sense to get that train all the way from Euston. Or is there some restriction I don't know about that makes that not allowed?

To try to answer those questions I had a search around https://www.westmidlandsrailway.co.uk/ to see what the restrictions are for the WMR/TfW only ticket are, but couldn't find anything Does anyone know? I guess really what I want to know is: What trains would I be allowed to use the super-off-peak WMR/TfW ticket on?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Any service operated by West Midlands Trains, which is the actual TOC, so WMR and LNR services.

Goodness only knows why they have worded it badly in that way.

If it meant WMR, there would be no possible journey - there are no WMR branded services on the WCML at all other than New St to Wolves and north of Cov.

As a suggestion, though, why not LNR (WMT) Only to Crewe then Crewe-Oxenholme? More direct.

 

[JonathanH]

As a suggestion, though, why not LNR (WMT) Only to Crewe then Crewe-Oxenholme? More direct.

...and a £20 difference in the cost of an off-peak return relative to going from Manchester.

 

[Starmill]

Once the ticket has actually been issued, you're likely to find it says 'TfW, West Mid & London NW Rwy Only' on it, which sort of clarifies, despite the very odd abbreviations.

The shorter abbreviation in use is 'WMR/LNR/TFW ONLY'.

...and a £20 difference in the cost of an off-peak return relative to going from Manchester.

Indeed. More than £55 for Crewe to Oxenholme return seems rather overpriced. There are two options from Manchester and one from Wigan, all at slightly over £30.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Once the ticket has actually been issued, you're likely to find it says 'TfW, West Mid & London NW Rwy Only' on it, which sort of clarifies, despite the very odd abbreviations.

The shorter abbreviation in use is 'WMR/LNR/TFW ONLY'.

OK so, if I've understood that correctly, I can just roll up at Euston, ask for a WMR (or whatever) only ticket to Manchester and then - despite what the journey planner is telling me - hop on the xx:46 direct to Crewe with it, yes? What are the time restrictions?

Indeed. More than £55 for Crewe to Oxenholme return seems rather overpriced. There are two options from Manchester and one from Wigan, all at slightly over £30.

Maybe the difference is because Avanti have no competition going north from Crewe, where there are several operators Manchester-Preston-Oxenholme? But yes that's why I didn't really consider the Crewe option (also there are more frequent trains from Manchester - both direct and changing at Preston).

 

[Bletchleyite]

OK so, if I've understood that correctly, I can just roll up at Euston, ask for a WMR (or whatever) only ticket to Manchester and then - despite what the journey planner is telling me - hop on the xx:46 direct to Crewe with it, yes? What are the time restrictions?

Yes.

Not valid on trains timed to depart Manchester Piccadilly after 04:29 or before 10:30 and not between 16:00 to 19:00.

Not valid on trains timed to depart London Euston after 04:29 or before 10:30 and not between 16:00 to 19:00

No break of journey on outward.

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

For an extra tenner there's an Off Peak:

Valid on trains timed to arrive at London Euston from 10:00. (This is in the text but is wrong, the actual southbound restriction seems to be: VALID MAN PICC DEP FROM 0730, EUS FROM 0845 M-F)

Not valid on trains timed to depart London Euston after 04:29 or before 08:45.

(Sorry, corrected)

Break of journey allowed both ways.

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

And also an Anytime for £120 (ouch!)

 

[Watershed]

OK so, if I've understood that correctly, I can just roll up at Euston, ask for a WMR (or whatever) only ticket to Manchester and then hop on the xx:46 direct to Crewe with it, yes? What are the time restrictions?

Yes and yes. It's restriction JM if you buy the £45 Off-Peak Return or the much more onerous JN if you buy the £35 Super Off-Peak Return.

Maybe the difference is because Avanti have no competition going north from Crewe, where there are several operators Manchester-Preston-Oxenholme? But yes that's why I didn't really consider the Crewe option (also there are more frequent trains from Manchester - both direct and changing at Preston).

It's simply a historic 'thing'. Crewe-Oxenholme was an Intercity priced flow, Manchester-Oxenholme was a Regional Railways priced flow. Hence why the latter has Day Returns and is generally cheaper per mile.

 

[Starmill]

It's simply a historic 'thing'. Crewe-Oxenholme was an Intercity priced flow, Manchester-Oxenholme was a Regional Railways priced flow. Hence why the latter has Day Returns and is generally cheaper per mile.

Indeed. Plus one of the options for Manchester to Oxenholme today being very slightly cheaper because it's TransPennine Express Only.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

You could also try via Liverpool, using WMT to Lime St and then Northern/TPE onwards on a separate ticket.
It will all be easier when the full pre-Covid timetable is back.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Yes.

Not valid on trains timed to depart Manchester Piccadilly after 04:29 or before 10:30 and not between 16:00 to 19:00.

Not valid on trains timed to depart London Euston after 04:29 or before 10:30 and not between 16:00 to 19:00

No break of journey on outward.

Thanks, that's what I needed to know.

You do half wonder why the TOCs go to all the trouble to have these useful cheaper tickets, only to then have journey planners that make it almost impossible to work out a good itinerary using them!

You could also try via Liverpool, using WMT to Lime St and then Northern/TPE onwards on a separate ticket.
It will all be easier when the full pre-Covid timetable is back.

Funnily enough I have done London-Oxenholme via Liverpool a couple of times before: A couple of years ago I seem to recall checking via Manchester but finding no TOC-specific tickets, so I ended up via Liverpool. I'm guessing that maybe at that time the WMT (or whatever the operator was called then) ticket didn't include TfW, which would have made going to Manchester impossible. I would imagine Manchester gives better services Northwards (although maybe Liverpool has better services from Crewe).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks, that's what I needed to know.

You do half wonder why the TOCs go to all the trouble to have these useful cheaper tickets, only to then have journey planners that make it almost impossible to work out a good itinerary using them!

At least these aren't like the "standard" WCML LNR Only tickets, where they have tried to cobble so much into one restriction that planners can barely issue a valid journey. Fortunately staff know about this and check based on what the text says ("A connection may be used to complete a journey started at a valid time").

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

You do half wonder why the TOCs go to all the trouble to have these useful cheaper tickets, only to then have journey planners that make it almost impossible to work out a good itinerary using them!
Funnily enough I have done London-Oxenholme via Liverpool a couple of times before: A couple of years ago I seem to recall checking via Manchester but finding no TOC tickets, so I ended up via Liverpool. I'm guessing that maybe at that time the WMT (or whatever the operator was called then) ticket didn't include TfW, which would have made going to Manchester impossible. I would imagine Manchester gives better services Northwards (although maybe Liverpool has better services from Crewe).

LM/WMT serve Liverpool directly, and have never run to Manchester - another accident of recent history.
Liverpool has slightly better services northwards (via Wigan) than it did, including just one TPE service via Oxenholme, plus locals to Preston.
You will probably end up on a TPE service from Manchester anyway.

It's very likely these cheaper TOC-specific tickets will disappear under the "simplified" GBR system now being devised.
The "expensive" Avanti fares go right back to BR policy to raise fares on prime inter-city routes which had been modernised, while regional fares on slow non-modernised routes stayed relatively low.
The private TOCs have just built on that foundation, sometimes going to extremes (low and high).
The "extremes" will soon disappear.

 

[Bletchleyite]

LM/WMT serve Liverpool directly, and have never run to Manchester - another accident of recent history.
Liverpool has slightly better services northwards (via Wigan) than it did, including just one TPE service via Oxenholme, plus locals to Preston.
You will probably end up on a TPE service from Manchester anyway.

It's very likely these cheaper TOC-specific tickets will disappear under the "simplified" GBR system now being devised.
The "expensive" Avanti fares go right back to BR policy to raise fares on prime inter-city routes which had been modernised, while regional fares on slow non-modernised routes stayed relatively low.
The private TOCs have just built on that foundation, sometimes going to extremes (low and high).
The "extremes" will soon disappear.

I'm less sure. The LNR/WMR fares are a successful example of market segmentation - they attract people from an old banger on the M1 and from coaches, while not doing much abstraction because most people buying them wouldn't be able to afford/justify the Any Permitted fares. I can see "regional trains only" tickets staying for some flows for that exact reason, though it might be done by having effectively unlimited Advance quotas on those trains instead.

The principle is nothing new and is done by DB to "compete with themselves" in the form of the Laender-Tickets and Quer-Durchs-Land-Ticket, and previously the Wochenendticket.

 

[Starmill]

The ticket in question is of a very large price difference. Although time restrictions aren't perfectly comparable, the Avanti return price of £94.50 is so much more than the WMT & TFW one of £35 that removing it completely would almost certainly shrink the market. An Avanti customer switching down today would make a 63% saving. A WMT customer would be faced with a 170% price increase to then go back.

When I've bought these tickets, they've been needed on the day of travel or the evening before. Avanti's Advance prices are never competitive at such notice.

Naturally, the service may well just raise more revenue with slightly fewer people travelling. But the larger the gap the less likely this is.

 

[JonathanH]

My previous response was a bit too speculative.

Anyway, more on topic, the Super-off-peak fare for London to Manchester via this route is valid on a very limited number of trains except on Sundays when it is available on all LNR/WMR/TFW services on the route, which is a good deal for a Sunday day out. I assume that people generally look at online planners rather than seeing these tickets on the machines.

 

[Starmill]

Kidsgrove, Stoke-on-Trent or Stone to London is only £30.50 for the Super Off Peak Return. Of course a change of trains at Stafford is needed but that's really very good value for money indeed. Wolverhampton to Milton Keynes Central or Bletchley - Ridgmont inclusive is £16.30 return. Many of these are at these sort of ratios.

 

[gray1404]

I am hopeful that the LNR/WMR Only and LNR/WMR/TfW Only tickets stay under GBR. To be clear, I hope the walk up option remains with an "open" return element rather then cheaper Advances on the slower trains. I believe the former would be possible if the tickets were restricted to something like "Not Intercity" or "Regional Services Only" or similar.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am hopeful that the LNR/WMR Only and LNR/WMR/TfW Only tickets stay under GBR. To be clear, I hope the walk up option remains with an "open" return element rather then cheaper Advances on the slower trains. I believe the former would be possible if the tickets were restricted to something like "Not Intercity" or "Regional Services Only" or similar.

Agreed. They widen the market, whereas TOCs spatting about shorter journeys with fares within 50p of each other don't and that aspect does need to go.

There's a very good reason why a number of the nationalised European railways "compete with themselves" in this sort of manner - it's not competition, it's market segmentation.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Leaving Euston at 1110 would get you up to Oxenholme for 1408 on the direct Avanti train, so approximately a three hour journey.

The Off Peak Return (SVR) "Any Permitted" fare is, however, some £112.00.

So what's the potential overall trade off between journey time and fare saving(s), if travelling on the various slower trains, as proposed by the OP?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Leaving Euston at 1110 would get you up to Oxenholme for 1408 on the direct Avanti train, so approximately a three hour journey.

The Off Peak Return (SVR) "Any Permitted" fare is, however, some £112.00.

So what's the potential overall trade off between journey time and fare saving(s), if travelling on the various slower trains, as proposed by the OP?

Bearing in mind that Avanti seem to not be offering any advance fares on the dates I want to travel (or any nearby dates for that matter - Avanti advance fares seem to be hard to come by at the moment)...

Going by Manchester, it's about £35 (I don't have the exact amount to hand) London to Manchester super-off-peak LNR, and I've managed to book advance tickets Manchester to Oxenholme and back for about £15 total (would have been about £35 for a standard off-peak ticket). Leaving Euston 10:46, arriving Oxenholme about 16:30.

So, all told, an extra 3 hours each way travelling. Plus about an hour trying to figure out the tickets, and the fare is reduced from £112 to about £50 (Thanks to everyone who helped here). If I'd needed to keep the flexibility of a walk-up ticket then it would have been £112 reduced to about £70 - still a pretty respectable saving!

FWIW if the direct Avanti off-peak fare had been anything up to about £70ish then I'd have just nabbed it without bothering to look for cheaper alternatives.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

FWIW if the direct Avanti off-peak fare had been anything up to about £70ish then I'd have just nabbed it without bothering to look for cheaper alternatives.

Unfortunately, you'd only get about as far as Stafford with Avanti on an "Any Permitted" SVR for that amount of money.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Unfortunately, you'd only get about as far as Stafford with Avanti on an "Any Permitted" SVR for that amount of money.

Haha! Yeah, that would leave quite a fair walk at the end of the train journey

Actually that's a journey I normally make a few times a year (in non-Covid years), and I do just about remember when you could get from London to Lancaster for less than that. That's going back a good few years though - before the era of inflation+X% increases every January.

 

[gray1404]

As the OP knows exactly which trains they want to travel on and is tied to Advance tickets between Manchester and Oxenhlome, I suggest they also look at advance tickets routes LNW/WMR/TFW between London and Manchester. These start at £12.00

There is the possibility of getting a ticket for £12.00 each way - £24.00 round trip - so saving a further £11.00 against the price of the £35.00 Super Off Peak Return between London and Manchester.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

As the OP knows exactly which trains they want to travel on and is tied to Advance tickets between Manchester and Oxenhlome, I suggest they also look at advance tickets routes LNW/WMR/TFW between London and Manchester. These start at £12.00

There is the potential so getting a £12.00 each way - £24.00 round trip - so saving a further £11.00 against the price of the £35.00 Super Off Peak Return between London and Manchester.

That's a very good point - seeing as I'm now tied into fixed trains North of Manchester, advance tickets London-Manchester would make a lot of sense. But where would I purchase those tickets online? I've tried the Avanti, LNWR and WMR sites, as well as trainsplit.com and drawn a blank. The problem seems to be that online journey planners aren't able to pick up the LNWR to Crewe/TfW to Manchester connection, since I'm not even seeing that offered with an walk-up ticket.

 

[gray1404]

Really easy. Goto

MixingDeck

on a desktop computer. Enter your journey details and then, on the bottom left hand side of the page click on "show me" followed by "show slower routes" then tick the box that says "Only valid on booked Transport for Wales and West Midlands Railway services" followed by clicking Update. You should see the advance tickets then.

Made sure the box "show overtaken trains" is also selected.

You would also go through a similar process to buy the WMR/LNR/TFW walk up tickets online. You'd select "Valid only on TfW Rail and West Midlands Railway services" followed by update instead.

 

[Wolfie]

At least these aren't like the "standard" WCML LNR Only tickets, where they have tried to cobble so much into one restriction that planners can barely issue a valid journey. Fortunately staff know about this and check based on what the text says ("A connection may be used to complete a journey started at a valid time").

Something l have relied on many times.

LM/WMT serve Liverpool directly, and have never run to Manchester - another accident of recent history.
Liverpool has slightly better services northwards (via Wigan) than it did, including just one TPE service via Oxenholme, plus locals to Preston.
You will probably end up on a TPE service from Manchester anyway.

It's very likely these cheaper TOC-specific tickets will disappear under the "simplified" GBR system now being devised.
The "expensive" Avanti fares go right back to BR policy to raise fares on prime inter-city routes which had been modernised, while regional fares on slow non-modernised routes stayed relatively low.
The private TOCs have just built on that foundation, sometimes going to extremes (low and high).
The "extremes" will soon disappear.

Cynically the low extremes may....

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Really easy. Goto

MixingDeck

on a desktop computer. Enter your journey details and then, on the bottom left hand side of the page click on "show me" followed by "show slower routes" then tick the box that says "Only valid on booked Transport for Wales and West Midlands Railway services" followed by clicking Update. You should see the advance tickets then.

Made sure the box "show overtaken trains" is also selected.

You would also go through a similar process to buy the WMR/LNR/TFW walk up tickets online. You'd select "Valid only on TfW Rail and West Midlands Railway services" followed by update instead.

So... as in this screenie! (Not my travel dates btw - I was browsing different dates). And yay! Thanks! Finally a journey planner that shows the LNWR/TfW journeys! Evidently the TPE mixing desk is the one to use! Looks from that like there are almost no really cheap advance tickets for the next month or two (not surprising really given the current situation), but at least now I have some confidence that the journey planner would have found them if there were any.

I'm not sure I'd describe that process as 'Really easy' though - it's easy if you already know all the tricks, which I would suspect would be well below 1% of the people travelling by train. The options you have to select to see those trains are not going to be intuitive to someone who doesn't already know a fair bit about rail fares. But that's getting off-topic for this thread into a general rant about how difficult it often is for people to find the best tickets

 

[gray1404]

If you could advise of your travel dates. It may be that WMR/LNR and TfW have not opened reservations for Advance fare bookings yet. If you give your dates though that would be great. No point booking the Super Off Peak too far ahead anyway.

 

[Watershed]

If you could advise of your travel dates. It may be that WMR/LNR and TfW have not opened reservations for Advance fare bookings yet. If you give your dates though that would be great. No point booking the Super Off Peak too far ahead anyway.

I think the difficult OP likely faces is that TfW aren't selling Advance tickets more than 7 days beforehand at the moment. And if you buy your ticket 7 days before travel, odds are that the lowest tier of Advances will have sold out (if they were ever available to begin with) on the WMT leg.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Really easy. Goto

MixingDeck

on a desktop computer. Enter your journey details and then, on the bottom left hand side of the page click on "show me" followed by "show slower routes" then tick the box that says "Only valid on booked Transport for Wales and West Midlands Railway services" followed by clicking Update. You should see the advance tickets then.

Made sure the box "show overtaken trains" is also selected.

You would also go through a similar process to buy the WMR/LNR/TFW walk up tickets online. You'd select "Valid only on TfW Rail and West Midlands Railway services" followed by update instead.

Just checking this out again, it seems the mixing desk is not linked to from the TPExpress home page, which would imply you can't use the mixing desk unless you already know the URL for it? As far as I can tell, the home page links to a different booking engine, similar to the one that Avanti uses, and which is unable to identify the WMT/TfW Euston-Manchester route. Have I missed something?

If you could advise of your travel dates. It may be that WMR/LNR and TfW have not opened reservations for Advance fare bookings yet. If you give your dates though that would be great. No point booking the Super Off Peak too far ahead anyway.

Thanks. Unfortunately, because this a completely public forum, I don't really want to do that. Posting something in public to allows people to deduce upfront that you'll be away from home on certain dates runs against general Internet security advice. I appreciate though that if I had given dates, it would've been a bit easier for people responding to my query. I'm not planning on booking the super-off-peak ahead though - I can after all just buy that at Euston on the day I turn up to travel. In the light of @Watershed's comment, I'll probably check back the TPE Mixing desk 1 week before I travel to see if any advance tickets have suddenly become available.