Woking Junction could get a flyover

[MarkyT]

The flying junctions done by the LSWR were rather an odd set. Put in at Putney towards Wimbledon, and at Byfleet facing west, both of which are little used, but not at Barnes or at Woking, which have caused delay for the last century since the LSWR went on its building spree.

Yes Putney is weird, but did allow up trains from Wimbledon to join the up side of the Windsor lines without conflict with down trains. There's no path space among the District line trains for many up trains today of course, but perhaps there were significantly more back in the day.

Byfleet was very important for freight however so was fully justified to avoid long slow goods trains snaking across the fasts through a flat junction. Freight from the southwest almost all went to Feltham yard first en route to various London terminals and transfers. The route is still used for a number of regular freight flows although Feltham yard has long gone.

 

[Deepgreen]

The flying junctions done by the LSWR were rather an odd set. Put in at Putney towards Wimbledon, and at Byfleet facing west, both of which are little used, but not at Barnes or at Woking, which have caused delay for the last century since the LSWR went on its building spree.

The level crossings at Barnes, along with the specific local environment and residents, may have prevented the construction of such a junction there (plus the relatively light usage of the junction in the 19th century).

 

[30907]

Yes Putney is weird, but did allow up trains from Wimbledon to join the up side of the Windsor lines without conflict with down trains. There's no path space among the District line trains for many up trains today of course, but perhaps there were significantly more back in the day.

Not that weird, since the Wimbledon branch belonged to the LSW ( and remained BR till quite recently), and a regular EMU service from Waterloo was provided from 1915-ish - I think this went in 1939.

 

[infobleep]

Once the grade separated Junction is in place, I take it all the services to and from south of Guildford that run via the Cobham line would be able to run via Woking. I also take it that services which skip Woking, e. g. the 7.34 Guildford to London and 18.00 London to Portsmouth would be able to stop at Woking. Those actually are booked to run via Woking, even if they don't stop there.

 

[Kite159]

Maybe the idea of having the 18:00 London to Portsmouth skipping Woking is not to have any Woking commuters on board, freeing up space for Guildford commuters & the one man and his dog wanting Haslemere

 

[Matt Taylor]

One man and his dog? That train is standing to Haslemere and still busy at Havant.

 

[pompeyfan]

The cobham trains would still run even if there was a grade separated junction at Woking. Last weeks fatality at Worplesdon saw a large proportion of trains run via the new line, instead of the 1hr+ diversion via Eastleigh. Signing diversionary routes is a huge bonus in the event of disruption.

 

[tds42]

Personally I think that with the removal of the conflict by sending trains towards Guildford it would be better to just send the Woking stopping services to Guildford. There are a LOT of people that travel between the two stations, to see this you only need to look at the numbers getting on the 7:39 or 8:39 at Woking that are only going to Guildford, those using the 8:39 have opted for that over the 8:25, so it's not like they have had a long time to wait since the previous train.

This is how it used to be before they built the bay platform 3, after which the stopping service changed from terminating at Guildford to Woking instead.

If its existence and use causes so many conflicts why did they build it? Was it simply to remove a half hourly service from the junction on the west side of the station so the lesser of two conflicting evils?

 

[GW43125]

The cobham trains would still run even if there was a grade separated junction at Woking. Last weeks fatality at Worplesdon saw a large proportion of trains run via the new line, instead of the 1hr+ diversion via Eastleigh. Signing diversionary routes is a huge bonus in the event of disruption.

Yet Fratton crews don't sign Chertsey...

 

[The Ham]

This is how it used to be before they built the bay platform 3, after which the stopping service changed from terminating at Guildford to Woking instead.

If its existence and use causes so many conflicts why did they build it? Was it simply to remove a half hourly service from the junction on the west side of the station so the lesser of two conflicting evils?

The use of Platform 3 doesn't cause too much of a problem at the moment, as those movements can be carried out in the shadow of movements to the west. However once the junction is converted to a flyover this ability goes away meaning that there could be more chance of impacting on other services.

Going forward (i.e. post Crossrail 2 and/or Heathrow Southern Approach) there is scope that there could be more movements going through Woking, as such that is when using platform 3 will impact significantly the capacity of the railway. Which is why the turnback is being proposed.

The issue with Guildford at the moment is that at times there is a limit on the number of platforms that can be used, as such there are also plans to increase the number of platforms there to enable more services to run through or start/stop there.

 

[pompeyfan]

Surely the issue with Guildford is the lack of a crossover from 4/5 to the new line? If you resolve that then Guildford becomes very flexible. As it stands, most of the day P3 spends the day empty.

 

[infobleep]

Maybe the idea of having the 18:00 London to Portsmouth skipping Woking is not to have any Woking commuters on board, freeing up space for Guildford commuters & the one man and his dog wanting Haslemere

You do have a point there. It would however be nice if an additional train could run from Woking to Guildford. Currently after the 18.16 leaves, there is not another one until 18.43, 27 minutes later. Given I would consider it to be the evening peak still, it would be nice to have another train.

Maybe the flyover would allow this, even if off another stopping train.

 

[RichardN]

Surely the issue with Guildford is the lack of a crossover from 4/5 to the new line? If you resolve that then Guildford becomes very flexible. As it stands, most of the day P3 spends the day empty.

P3 at Guildford is busy from 18:15 to 18:30 though. 18:15 to 18:17 up, then 18:21 to 18:23 down, followed by a SN terminator due to arrive at 18:29...

 

[The Ham]

You do have a point there. It would however be nice if an additional train could run from Wrong to Guildford. Currently after the 18.16 leaves, there is not another one until 18.43, 27 minutes later. Given I would consider it to be the evening peak still, it would be nice to have another train.

Maybe the flyover would allow this, even if off another stopping train.

It's not just the gaps in service, nor is it when the 1747 from Guildford to London (12 coaches) is cancelled and the next train is then ramed (1800 has 5 coaches), rather it is the poor choice of services you have to make connections heading west. Getting to Basingstoke isn't too bad but going to a specific station and it can be painful.

 

[455driver]

Once the grade separated Junction is in place, I take it all the services to and from south of Guildford that run via the Cobham line would be able to run via Woking.

They are as much (Fratton) crew route retainer trips as they are to avoid conflicts at Woking jn.

I also take it that services which skip Woking, e. g. the 7.34 Guildford to London and 18.00 London to Portsmouth would be able to stop at Woking. Those actually are booked to run via Woking, even if they don't stop there.

You take it wrong because those skipping Woking is all about passenger management as they are very full anyway so stopping at Woking woiuld make it worse.

I cant see any changes happening to these services unless there is a timetable recast.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Yet Fratton crews don't sign Chertsey...

Nor do Guildford, or the majority of Farnham, Bournemouth, Salisbury.

It's the achilles heel of SWT mainline services, not all Fratton crews sign Cobham either and if you send a 1P or 2P service via Cobham and something then goes awry, it's stuck because they don't know via Epsom.

If they want to cut route knowledge back to the bone, then they have to be prepared to take the consequences of it.

 

[infobleep]

They are as much (Fratton) crew route retainer trips as they are to avoid conflicts at Woking jn.

You take it wrong because those skipping Woking is all about passenger management as they are very full anyway so stopping at Woking woiuld make it worse.

I cant see any changes happening to these services unless there is a timetable recast.

Which there will be. A recast that is. Whether it affects those services is a other matter. It would just be nice to have an additional service from Woking. Perhaps they could run a train from platform 6 to Guildford or beyond, that stops at all stations to Haslemere. OK I'm living in fantasy land here. I realise it's not that simple to path extra trains; find rolling stock and crew just like that

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[455driver]

Which there will be. A recast that is. Whether it affects those services is a other matter. It would just be nice to have an additional service from Woking. Perhaps they could run a train from platform 6 to Guildford or beyond, that stops at all stations to Haslemere. OK I'm living in fantasy land here. I realise it's not that simple to path extra trains; find rolling stock and crew just like that

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

So how are Fratton crews going to retain route knowledge over the new line if these services are rerouted via Woking?

 

[bb21]

Nor do Guildford, or the majority of Farnham, Bournemouth, Salisbury.

It's the achilles heel of SWT mainline services, not all Fratton crews sign Cobham either and if you send a 1P or 2P service via Cobham and something then goes awry, it's stuck because they don't know via Epsom.

If they want to cut route knowledge back to the bone, then they have to be prepared to take the consequences of it.

Chertsey hasn't the capacity to take additional trains on weekdays, and trains diverted that way also end up with massive delays, knocking onto return workings, etc, so only used as a last resort. This is only useful during weekend possession. Much simpler to turn things at Guildford/Woking/Surbiton. Less convenient for customers and more overcrowding, but much less scope for more things to go wrong when the mainline is already up the wall. No point then spreading the disruption onto the Windsors.

It's a little daft not to have Fratton crew sign Epsom, I'll give you that, but even then, I can count on one hand the number of trains it would have helped in the last 2-3 months.

 

[pompeyfan]

Chertsey hasn't the capacity to take additional trains on weekdays, and trains diverted that way also end up with massive delays, knocking onto return workings, etc, so only used as a last resort. This is only useful during weekend possession. Much simpler to turn things at Guildford/Woking/Surbiton. Less convenient for customers and more overcrowding, but much less scope for more things to go wrong when the mainline is already up the wall. No point then spreading the disruption onto the Windsors.

It's a little daft not to have Fratton crew sign Epsom, I'll give you that, but even then, I can count on one hand the number of trains it would have helped in the last 2-3 months.

I can only think of 2 occasions where knowing via Epsom would have helped, and in one of those cases the majority of the crews were actually Waterloo, Guildford or Woking. In fact if I remember correctly there was also an MPV Fratton driver who picked up a spare non commercial guard at Guildford.

The one that strikes me as odd is Waterloo not signing the Botley line when they sign to Poole anyway.

 

[swt_passenger]

Which there will be. A recast that is. Whether it affects those services is a other matter.

I wouldn't bet on a recast of the timetable. (Don't forget the term recast almost means starting with a blank paper.) Extending trains from Haslemere to Portsmouth that are already running north of Haslemere doesn't need a change to the basic departure times from Waterloo, and the whole mainline timetable will still have to be based on junction timings and conflicts at Woking.

I think the real question is how passengers on the line through Guildford will react to having trains with less seating capacity overall, and having pushed like mad for less seats all round, will you all be happy with more standing, and longer dwell times with the 442s?

 

[GW43125]

Chertsey hasn't the capacity to take additional trains on weekdays, and trains diverted that way also end up with massive delays, knocking onto return workings, etc, so only used as a last resort. This is only useful during weekend possession. Much simpler to turn things at Guildford/Woking/Surbiton. Less convenient for customers and more overcrowding, but much less scope for more things to go wrong when the mainline is already up the wall. No point then spreading the disruption onto the Windsors.

It's a little daft not to have Fratton crew sign Epsom, I'll give you that, but even then, I can count on one hand the number of trains it would have helped in the last 2-3 months.

We had one last week when Hampton court Jn went up the wall. That's when we know it's bad

 

[bb21]

We had one last week when Hampton court Jn went up the wall. That's when we know it's bad

I assume you mean the Esher module failure?

That was, well, one of the worst this year (or shall I say last year) not caused by an external factor.

 

[TEW]

The one that strikes me as odd is Waterloo not signing the Botley line when they sign to Poole anyway.

Most the time a Waterloo guard is working with a Wimbledon Park driver who wouldn't sign beyond Pirbright Junction, so it would probably be of fairly limited use.

 

[pompeyfan]

Most the time a Waterloo guard is working with a Wimbledon Park driver who wouldn't sign beyond Pirbright Junction, so it would probably be of fairly limited use.

But when they get to Poole I'd imagine it's not with a WP driver, or are you saying most 1P/2P Waterloo guarded trains are run with a WP driver?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

But when they get to Poole I'd imagine it's not with a WP driver, or are you saying most 1P/2P Waterloo guarded trains are run with a WP driver?

No it won't be. It could be a Fratton, Northam,Bournemouth or Weymouth driver from Basingstoke onwards.

Waterloo link 3 is the only one that is currently learning Portsmouth.

Bournemouth, Northam,Wimbledon,Woking,Guildford and Fratton all have booked work down to at least Havant, with Bournemouth having to hang a right at Farlington junction and go towards Fareham & Southampton as I don't think they have any work into Portsmouth.

 

[pompeyfan]

No it won't be. It could be a Fratton, Northam,Bournemouth or Weymouth driver from Basingstoke onwards.

Waterloo link 3 is the only one that is currently learning Portsmouth.

Bournemouth, Northam,Wimbledon,Woking,Guildford and Fratton all have booked work down to at least Havant, with Bournemouth having to hang a right at Farlington junction and go towards Fareham & Southampton as I don't think they have any work into Portsmouth.

Correct, Bournemouth don't sign Portsmouth or Botley. Northam and Fratton electric drivers have a near enough identical route knowledge don't they?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Very similar, I don't think Fratton sign Northam depot though.

 

[TEW]

But when they get to Poole I'd imagine it's not with a WP driver, or are you saying most 1P/2P Waterloo guarded trains are run with a WP driver?

Most the Portsmouth trains Waterloo guards work are with a Wimbledon Park driver, most the Poole trains they work are with a Waterloo driver. Wimbledon Park don't sign the mainline beyond Pirbright Junction, Waterloo didn't sign beyond Guildford, but as Harley Davidson said, some are learning Portsmouth now.

 

[HowardGWR]

Can someone explain to me what the route training of staff has to do with a flyover at Woking or infrastructure in general? I'm lost.