Woking to London Euston - ticket to London Terminals valid despite saying not valid?

[miklcct]

I am reading the information page of National Rail Enquiries, and it specifically says that a ticket from Woking to London Terminals will not be valid to London Euston.

I want to verify this claim and to find out what kind of ticket if I needed to travel to London Euston. I tried the Routing Guide, in this case, Euston is in London group and I can't find a permitted route on the map which connects Woking and London Euston without crossing central London.

However, when I search on National Rail Enquiries, normally it will route me through the underground and I need a ticket to Underground zone 1 here. however, if I specifically route it through Willesden Junction, it will show me that a Woking to London Terminals ticket, which contradicts its own saying that a Woking to London Terminals ticket is not valid to Euston.

As break of journey is allowed on an Anytime ticket, that means I can alight at South Hampstead as a break of journey to avoid buying a more expensive ticket to South Hampstead, if I use London Overground to reach there. (£10.25 on a through ticket to South Hampstead not via London compared to £8.25 to London Terminals with 26-30 railcard).



Where is the mistake here? Can anyone confirm, using the routing guide, that Woking to London Terminals is indeed valid to London Euston via Willesden Junction?

 

[alistairlees]

The ticket is not valid on the Underground. You need a ticket from Woking to London Zone 1, which will enable you to make a journey on the Underground, from Vauxhall, or Waterloo (or Victoria), to Euston.

[edit]: sorry, I see there are some other aspects to your question which I have not addressed.

 

[miklcct]

The ticket is not valid on the Underground. You need a ticket from Woking to London Zone 1, which will enable you to make a journey on the Underground, from Vauxhall, or Waterloo (or Victoria), to Euston.

I understand that a train ticket isn't valid on the underground. What I am specifically asking is if the ticket is valid by changing at Clapham Junction and Willesden Junction into London Euston on national rail services only.

 

[Watershed]

I understand that a train ticket isn't valid on the underground. What I am specifically asking is if the ticket is valid by changing at Clapham Junction and Willesden Junction into London Euston on national rail services only.

If National Rail Enquiries says something is a valid route (on the same ticket as you hold), then it's valid.

Similarly, if you're travelling in accordance with the itinerary you were given when buying your ticket, that's also valid.

The Routeing Guide can also be used to determine valid routes, but it's usually best to rely on the above two methods (which make it easy to prove you're in the right) if using a route that may be contentious.

 

[hkstudent]

What surprises me is that, what TfL claim on Clapham Junction platform 0&1 (London Terminal Tickets not valid on this platform/service) would be having flaws and misleading.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What surprises me is that, what TfL claim on Clapham Junction platform 0&1 (London Terminal Tickets not valid on this platform/service) would be having flaws and misleading.

Nobody other than a rail enthusiast would even consider taking that route - it's slow and awkward compared with going into Waterloo and taking the Tube, a bus or a taxi. So it really doesn't matter.

 

[hkstudent]

Nobody other than a rail enthusiast would even consider taking that route - it's slow and awkward compared with going into Waterloo and taking the Tube, a bus or a taxi. So it really doesn't matter.

Yeah, but the issue is still: the claim is faulty despite it is extremely unlikely to take that route. If TfL managed to seal this "loophole" of London Terminal ticket valid at Euston, that's another story.

Taking a bus or taxi when having a valid ticket cost you extra, which won't be a very good idea.
While, Victoria Line is quite congested (and hot during summer) at the most time in a day, taking the less crowded Overground train maybe a better idea.

Also, notably, if taking Overground route is cheaper than the LU / Bus / Taxi way, why not taking the Overground?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yeah, but the issue is still: the claim is faulty despite it is extremely unlikely to take that route.

The claim is technically faulty, yes, but that faulty claim will never affect anyone other than a rail enthusiast.

Don't shout too much, anyway; if this is to be fixed, the fix will be to remove the validity, not to change the sign. Removing the validity by way of a negative easement in the Routeing Guide would cost much less and would affect no genuine passenger at all because it is simply not a sensible thing to do.

If TfL managed to seal this "loophole" of London Terminal ticket valid at Euston, that's another story.

Taking a bus or taxi when having a valid ticket cost you extra, which won't be a very good idea.
While, Victoria Line is quite congested (and hot during summer) at the most time in a day, taking the less crowded Overground train maybe a better idea.

Also, notably, if taking Overground route is cheaper than the LU / Bus / Taxi way, why not taking the Overground?

Anyone who can afford to travel to London from somewhere outside of the Zones (anyone inside them will already have an Oyster if they don't want to use contactless) can also afford £1.55 bus fare. The bus from Waterloo will be both quicker and easier than this proposed rail journey.

If they really can't afford it they might walk from Waterloo or Victoria instead, which I'm not sure wouldn't potentially still be quicker.

They will also almost certainly also have a contactless card with which they most likely bought their train ticket (not many Advances down that way). Or they will have bought an outboundary Travelcard, as almost everyone in the South East does when going for an off peak day trip to London, just because it's easier.

I'm all for shouting about and fixing genuinely misleading publicity, e.g. when TOCs claim things like "Off Peak tickets not valid" when there are plenty that are, e.g. tickets to which the unofficial "Network Rule"* applies. But this is so niche it really does not matter, and having the sign is of more benefit than not in terms of preventing people being penalty fared at places like Kensington Olympia or West Brompton.

* It's not a written rule but it does apply to most cross London ticket restriction codes - typically only the longer part of a cross London journey on a through off peak ticket will carry time restrictions.

 

[Jan Mayen]

Would a ticket from Woking to London Terminals be valid Woking-Clapham Junction-Denmark Hill-London Blackfriars?

 

[AlterEgo]

The linked page clearly states that a route has to be reasonable, not an official Permitted Route.

Invites the discussion as to whether a route can ever be Permitted but not reasonable!

 

[hkstudent]

Would a ticket from Woking to London Terminals be valid Woking-Clapham Junction-Denmark Hill-London Blackfriars?

Travelling in London | National Rail

Whether you’re travelling to, from, or in and around London by train, we can help you find the best routes and prices for your journey.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

Woking is "from the south", thus valid to Blackfriars and City Thameslink.
Despite some people may claim Waterloo - Waterloo East - London Bridge - Blackfriars may be the most direct route, the Denmark Hill one seems to be the most direct option (without incurring out of station interchange)

 

[bb21]

Where is the mistake here? Can anyone confirm, using the routing guide, that Woking to London Terminals is indeed valid to London Euston via Willesden Junction?

Woking to London Group is not permitted via Willesden Junction as none of the mapped routes show a route that way.

Why NRE shows it as a permitted route I cannot say. Some websites will show things which are not strictly valid for a variety of reasons.

If you wish to travel that way on the basis of "the booking engine says so" then it is your prerogative. Last time I travelled there no ticket gates were present but I can't say whether any have been installed since. If you get checked on London Overground services, at the gates at South Hampstead (if any now exist), or by a revenue block you are bound to run into problems as it is such a ridiculous route no sane person will go that way. You may win such a dispute but it will be hassle for very little financial reward.

The claim is technically faulty, yes, but that faulty claim will never affect anyone other than a rail enthusiast.

Don't shout too much, anyway; if this is to be fixed, the fix will be to remove the validity, not to change the sign. Removing the validity by way of a negative easement in the Routeing Guide would cost much less and would affect no genuine passenger at all because it is simply not a sensible thing to do.

The easiest fix for this is to bar all London Terminals tickets to/from/via Kensington Olympia/Shoreditch High Street, in the same manner that Farringdon is barred. There is no one in their sane mind needing to travel that way. I have no wish to see it happen but the more is shouted about it, the more likely this will happen being a genuine anomaly.

 

[MikeWh]

Nobody other than a rail enthusiast would even consider taking that route - it's slow and awkward compared with going into Waterloo and taking the Tube, a bus or a taxi. So it really doesn't matter.

When the unions decide to strike on the Underground it might be seen as a possible route. I'm sure I've been asked the question on my site before.

The easiest fix for this is to bar all London Terminals tickets to/from/via Kensington Olympia/Shoreditch High Street, in the same manner that Farringdon is barred. There is no one in their sane mind needing to travel that way. I have no wish to see it happen but the more is shouted about it, the more likely this will happen being a genuine anomaly.

Would you concede that Richmond - Willesden Junction - Euston is a potentially useful route (it's a similar length to Richmond - Waterloo) and thus Euston should be allowed from SWR stations beyond Richmond?

 

[SickyNicky]

Woking to London Group is not permitted via Willesden Junction as none of the mapped routes show a route that way.

Why NRE shows it as a permitted route I cannot say. Some websites will show things which are not strictly valid for a variety of reasons.

Because it's the shortest route by rail between Woking and London Euston? The tube used to be in the shortest route calculation, but it's not any more.

 

[swt_passenger]

Because it's the shortest route by rail between Woking and London Euston? The tube used to be in the shortest route calculation, but it's not any more.

If that was the rule, shouldn’t NRES also produce convoluted rail only routes into St Pancras, Kings Cross, Moorgate, Liverpool St?

 

[akm]

Previously we've had someone buying a ticket to Weybridge at Euston (NR) and being surprised they got a not-valid-on-Underground ticket:

"London Euston to Weybridge via Surbiton" but wanted ticket to include the tube

I bought a ticket yesterday from Euston to Weybridge, and was given two options. One was 'Any Permitted', the other was 'via Surbiton'. I bought the (cheaper) via Surbiton ticket, as almost all trains go via Surbiton... I got a confirmation on the screen to show that the ticket was for 'London...

www.railforums.co.uk

and someone buying a ticket from Epsom to Euston being similarly surprised:

Epsom to Euston (AKA "London Terminals")

I have a sneaking suspicion that I may be treading old ground here, and apologise if that's the case. Yesterday I purchased two single tickets from a machine at Epsom, from Epsom to London Euston via any permitted route. Printed on the tickets was: From Epsom To London Terminals I was a bit...

www.railforums.co.uk

In both threads the forum consensus appeared to be that a via-Willesden-Junction route is valid for such journeys, and the NR web page https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/Travelling-to-london.aspx#Terminals is wrong to suggest otherwise.

 

[Bletchleyite]

When the unions decide to strike on the Underground it might be seen as a possible route. I'm sure I've been asked the question on my site before.

Fair point, but I'm not sure that means it should be allowed all the time. On a BR strike day I once travelled from Ormskirk to Preston via Liverpool and Manchester, that being the shortest route by which there was a service, and that was accepted fine, but I wouldn't even begin to suggest it was reasonable to do that normally.

Would you concede that Richmond - Willesden Junction - Euston is a potentially useful route (it's a similar length to Richmond - Waterloo) and thus Euston should be allowed from SWR stations beyond Richmond?

More so than Clapham Jn but it is still fairly niche.

Previously we've had someone buying a ticket to Weybridge at Euston (NR) and being surprised they got a not-valid-on-Underground ticket:

"London Euston to Weybridge via Surbiton" but wanted ticket to include the tube

I bought a ticket yesterday from Euston to Weybridge, and was given two options. One was 'Any Permitted', the other was 'via Surbiton'. I bought the (cheaper) via Surbiton ticket, as almost all trains go via Surbiton... I got a confirmation on the screen to show that the ticket was for 'London...

www.railforums.co.uk

and someone buying a ticket from Epsom to Euston being similarly surprised:

Epsom to Euston (AKA "London Terminals")

I have a sneaking suspicion that I may be treading old ground here, and apologise if that's the case. Yesterday I purchased two single tickets from a machine at Epsom, from Epsom to London Euston via any permitted route. Printed on the tickets was: From Epsom To London Terminals I was a bit...

www.railforums.co.uk

In both threads the forum consensus appeared to be that a via-Willesden-Junction route is valid for such journeys, and the NR web page https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/Travelling-to-london.aspx#Terminals is wrong to suggest otherwise.

That is a bit of a planner issue - if you enter a London Terminal that is reached via the Tube they really should be offering a ticket to or from U1, not London Terminals.

 

[Kite159]

Nobody other than a rail enthusiast would even consider taking that route - it's slow and awkward compared with going into Waterloo and taking the Tube, a bus or a taxi. So it really doesn't matter.

On a hot day the Overground services beats the underground as they have AC.

Better to be on a slower cool train than working a sweat on the boiling hot Northern line. Especially if you have saved money by not having to buy a ticket to London terminals (instead only to Clapham Junction)

 

[miklcct]

If that was the rule, shouldn’t NRES also produce convoluted rail only routes into St Pancras, Kings Cross, Moorgate, Liverpool St?

If any of the shortest routes crossed Farringdon they will be barred on a London Terminals ticket.

 

[yorkie]

It is valid via Willesden Junction however it may not be wise to highlight such routes as it can result in their withdrawal.

That said, I would argue that Richmond to London Euston is actually not at all unreasonable via Willesden Jn (it's one change of train and there used to be a direct train from Richmond to London St Pancras; also it is a defined fare in the PAYG database).

By extension, as Woking to London is clearly valid via Richmond, therefore Woking to London Euston should equally be valid via Willesden Jn, though the argument over whether it should be valid via Clapham Jn/Willesden Jn is less arguable or clear-cut.

However some people in the rail industry may not agree with this interpretation of what is reasonable; after all Newark to London was disallowed via Nottingham, despite being an entirely reasonable and long standing permitted route

 

[Bletchleyite]

On a hot day the Overground services beats the underground as they have AC.

...says a railway enthusiast.

Literally no normal passenger will be doing this. It's slower than walking between Waterloo and Euston by the time you've faffed about changing twice, and that assumes your destination is near Euston which it probably isn't - more likely it'll be in the area south of Euston which brings it slightly nearer Waterloo than Euston itself.

Better to be on a slower cool train than working a sweat on the boiling hot Northern line. Especially if you have saved money by not having to buy a ticket to London terminals (instead only to Clapham Junction)

Er, the discussion is about buying a ticket to London Terminals. If you only buy one to Clapham Junction you would pay separately for LO and so there is no ticketing issue.

 

[Andrew1395]

I am reading the information page of National Rail Enquiries, and it specifically says that a ticket from Woking to London Terminals will not be valid to London Euston.

I want to verify this claim and to find out what kind of ticket if I needed to travel to London Euston. I tried the Routing Guide, in this case, Euston is in London group and I can't find a permitted route on the map which connects Woking and London Euston without crossing central London.

However, when I search on National Rail Enquiries, normally it will route me through the underground and I need a ticket to Underground zone 1 here. however, if I specifically route it through Willesden Junction, it will show me that a Woking to London Terminals ticket, which contradicts its own saying that a Woking to London Terminals ticket is not valid to Euston.

As break of journey is allowed on an Anytime ticket, that means I can alight at South Hampstead as a break of journey to avoid buying a more expensive ticket to South Hampstead, if I use London Overground to reach there. (£10.25 on a through ticket to South Hampstead not via London compared to £8.25 to London Terminals with 26-30 railcard).

View attachment 101149

Where is the mistake here? Can anyone confirm, using the routing guide, that Woking to London Terminals is indeed valid to London Euston via Willesden Junction?

With a ticket origin Woking and destination London Euston via Willesden Junction is the shortest route by rail. However the ticket is origin Woking destination London Terminals. So the question is for that ticket can Euston be considered a valid end destination under the group fare location London Terminals?

There is a difference between what is meant by the Routeing Guide London Group Group Routeing Point Routeing data, and the Fares pricing data group location London Terminals. They mean different things and are used in different ways by two distinct source data systems.

The end user journey planner receives both sets of source data and needs rules to interpret both and summarise that logic in a customer output. Currently without a rule that disbar the routeing it looks ok to me.

 

[bb21]

When the unions decide to strike on the Underground it might be seen as a possible route. I'm sure I've been asked the question on my site before.

Would you concede that Richmond - Willesden Junction - Euston is a potentially useful route (it's a similar length to Richmond - Waterloo) and thus Euston should be allowed from SWR stations beyond Richmond?

Is it a useful route? Yes it will inevitably be to some people (also see below), but the validity of a London Terminals fare was never dependent on that. Do I think it should be permitted? Possibly, but what I think should happen is not really that relevant. There are many things I think should be permitted but that doesn't make them permitted under current routing rules.

My point is that it is an easy fix, which I suspect may well be one of the solutions considered if more is made of this, eg. through disputes because the ticket holder cannot eloquently explain himself on the spot, which is highly likely if a novice like OP who barely understands ticket validity is caught using one, given how unorthodox the routing is. If validity on the Overground orbital is clarified it will sort out many such issues and I suspect there is only one way the clarification will go.

I personally don't believe the current rules as written allow such routing, but I understand booking engines implement the rules on different interpretations and specs to the published rules and of course passengers should be allowed to travel according to a generated itinerary. I just don't think it is a good idea to be shouting about it as I doubt this is an intended routing otherwise there would have been clarification in routing maps to show that which they clearly don't at the moment.

Richmond - Waterloo is around 9.5 miles and Richmond - Willesden Junction - Euston is around 15 miles iirc. The former is under 20 minutes on a fast train and just under 30 on a slow train with an option for a Vauxhall interchange onwards to central London whereas the latter is just under 40 if you time it really well or much longer if you don't, which is the case for the bulk of the day. The former direct trains and the latter involving a split level interchange, or two extra changes if you are already on the Waterloo train. Say you are on the 1053 from Windsor today booked into Waterloo at 1149, a good 3 minute connection at Richmond onto the 1131 to Stratford getting into Willesden Junction at 1149, you then just miss the Euston train and end up on the 1204, finally getting into Euston at 1223. Alternatively say you are on a slow train, so 1108 from Strawberry Hill for example into Waterloo at 1146, getting into Richmond at 1118. Next Stratford train is 1131, so as above finally into Euston at 1223. Both illustrative examples taking over 30 minutes longer. The number of people who will find this routing useful (excluding anyone purely doing it to undercut the fare by interchanging at Vauxhall or Waterloo) is likely to be very small. Aside from those travelling to a destination near Euston (validity into which is a by-product of routing arrangement rather than primary consideration and still only on a par with travel time on the more obvious route via Vauxhall/Waterloo rather than offering a distinct advantage), the only other people that come to mind immediately are those preferring Overground stock over Underground stock (again not really a primary consideration when arranging fares validity) and people with accessibility requirements (which is a valid reason but normally catered for specifically rather than through wholesale changes to routing permissions for everyone).

Because it's the shortest route by rail between Woking and London Euston? The tube used to be in the shortest route calculation, but it's not any more.

Yes I suspect that may be the reason behind it, but it again goes back to a discussion that had taken place numerous times before on whether it is reasonable/allowed to randomly pick any station in a fares group, and the discrepancy between what is reasonable/allowed/intended/implemented but we've gone over this many more times than I care to remember already without really drawing any consensus.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With a ticket origin Woking and destination London Euston via Willesden Junction is the shortest route by rail. However the ticket is origin Woking destination London Terminals. So the question is for that ticket can Euston be considered a valid end destination under the group fare location London Terminals?

They were going to solve that by creating a set of destinations to use instead of London Terminals, e.g. "London Vic/Waterloo" but this never happened, I wonder why?

Back in the day it would have been "London SR", i.e. Southern Region stations only (so not Euston), would it not?

Yes I suspect that may be the reason behind it, but it again goes back to a discussion that had taken place numerous times before on whether it is reasonable/allowed to randomly pick any station in a fares group, and the discrepancy between what is reasonable/allowed/intended/implemented but we've gone over this many more times than I care to remember already without really drawing any consensus.

You're certainly allowed to do that with Travelcards - you can pick any station in the Zones and map out the Permitted Routes to that then once you've crossed the boundary do what you like. Which is why the south WCML Travelcards are routed Watford Junction (to prevent travel via Bedford by choosing e.g. Elstree and Borehamwood as your destination, because Bedford Travelcards are more expensive) whereas the point to point tickets aren't (as they'd not be valid that way anyway, demonstrating that London Terminals in the case of point to point tickets means "the London Terminals that are relevant").

My view is that by contrast you should consider London Terminals as if it were one station with lots of platform sets, so you can only pick the ones relevant, not any you like.

 

[Surreytraveller]

If Clapham Junction to Euston is allowed via Willesden, then by extension would that mean a ticket from a location on the West Coast Mainline to London Terminals be valid to Waterloo, Victoria et al via Willesden?

 

[yorkie]

If Clapham Junction to Euston is allowed via Willesden, then by extension would that mean a ticket from a location on the West Coast Mainline to London Terminals be valid to Waterloo, Victoria et al via Willesden?

Birmingham etc to London has long-standing validity into Waterloo, via Reading!

 

[Surreytraveller]

Birmingham etc to London has long-standing validity into Waterloo, via Reading!

Of course it does! Forgot that! I had in mind something comparable to Woking, though, such as Hemel or somewhere

 

[paul1609]

According to this NRE page a ticket from Woking to London Terminals is not valid to Euston. https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/Travelling-to-london.aspx#Terminals

 

[Watershed]

According to this NRE page a ticket from Woking to London Terminals is not valid to Euston. https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/Travelling-to-london.aspx#Terminals

That's the same page the OP began with - and then disproved on NRE itself!

 

[yorkie]

According to this NRE page a ticket from Woking to London Terminals is not valid to Euston. https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/Travelling-to-london.aspx#Terminals

This is not authoritative (even if it claims to be )

The IDMS (an industry standard) data also claims (or claimed, last time I checked) that Richmond to London isn't valid into London Euston, which has longstanding validity. There are other examples.