Woking weekend day travelcard restrictions

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by AnkleBoots, 8 Jan 2017.

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  1. AnkleBoots

    AnkleBoots Member

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    I bought a Super Off Peak day travelcard from Woking ticket office yesterday and the staff said that I could not use it to come back before 6:30pm. This seems surprising for a weekend.

    I then played with the ticket machine to find out more and it seems that this restriction only applies from Waterloo or Clapham or Vauxhall.

    To get round this could I have boarded at Waterloo eg at 5pm on a train stopping at Surbiton, get off and on the same train there, and would be able to honestly tell the Woking barrier people that I had boarded at Surbiton? Or is this fraud.

    Thanks
     
  2. globetrotter

    globetrotter Member

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    This seems to be correct :

    Restriction Code: UR

    APPLICABLE DAYS

    Saturday, Sunday & Public
    Holidays

    OUTWARD AND RETURN TRAVEL

    If boarding at the stations
    below, not valid on trains
    departing:

    London Terminals: 04:30-10:59
    & 16:30-19:00

    Vauxhall: 04:30-11:05 &
    16:03-18:35

    Queenstown Road: 04:30-11:05_&
    16:03-18:35

    Clapham Junction: 04:30-11:05
    & 16:09-18:40

    Any other station in London
    Zones 1-6 not listed above:
    04:30-10:59


    Presumably you could travel by District Line to Wimbledon and return from there, as you then would not be "boarding" at any of the stations with PM restrictions.
     
  3. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    This reminds me of when FCC introduced the evening peak and applied it to Travelcards (or tried to). The trick would be to alight and reboard outside the restricted area, as long as that was within the TC zones. On the GN route this could be Oakleigh Park or something.

    I think they tried to make conditions to get around this but I have no idea how successful they were, or how many people weren't allowed through (manual) barrier checks back then.

    I recall even now you get warned (GTR) you may get a penalty fare when they can only excess you.

    Sent from my Vivo 6 using Tapatalk
     
  4. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    If you board at a non-barred station, you're valid.

    It's unclear whether you can alight from a train and re-board the same one.

    But, for sure, boarding a train you were not on previously, ie. getting a train a few minutes ahead and waiting for the next one, is legit.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    That's perfectly valid.
     
  5. paulweaver

    paulweaver Established Member

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    Is the ticket valid for Waterloo to Clapham in those evening times? Or indeed Clapham to Olympia? I.e does the restriction apply to the travelcard part?
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    A train company acting dishonestly and making a financial gain from it (selling a more expensive ticket than needed)?
     
  6. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Absolutely not. That would be unlawful.
    Absolutely normal for some train companies, and they're seemingly immune from prosecution. It's not a level playing field.
     
  7. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    I asked a GTR RPI about the peak train issue, and he admitted that they couldn't give a penalty fare to someone with an off-peak ticket on a train getting to King's Cross before 10am.

    He did however say that they'd seek to MG11 if they thought someone was doing it to avoid paying the correct fare, so perhaps that's what now happens?
     
  8. AnkleBoots

    AnkleBoots Member

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    Weekend leisure travellers really don't need these unnecessary complications!

    Although it's quite a bit cheaper than the Off Peak ticket.

    Thanks for your help
     
  9. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    They can of course withdraw these Super Off-Peak fares to "simply" things. ;)

    Seriously I doubt anyone would care. The current restrictions prevent the use of the faster trains at busier times which is what they were seeking I would suspect. If you are willing to get a slower suburban train by boarding at Wimbledon then fair play.

    If you want full flexibility then there is of course an appropriate product for it, with "Anytime" in the name.
     
  10. TEW

    TEW Established Member

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    The concept of only restricting the certain stations is nothing new, the Weekday Super Off Peak tickets on SWT have had very similar restrictions for years.
     
  11. RJ

    RJ Established Member

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    You could get off at any station between Waterloo and Woking and do the hat dance on every platform before re-boarding. It doesn't change the fact that you boarded the train at Waterloo.

    You'd be better off buying a ticket that doesn't have time restrictions that affect you.
     
  12. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Be careful what you wish for! Pricing managers read this forum intently. This post could be interpreted as a request to abolish these fares. If too many people appear to want them abolished, they might well end up being removed.

    You have to make the best of the system that you can if you want to save money. Some restrictions are daft, and it's easy to get around them, but if the cheaper fares did not exist, we'd all pay more.
     
  13. AnkleBoots

    AnkleBoots Member

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    It does mean I can truthfully say that I boarded the train at Surbiton though.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    The ticket costs little more than a Z1-6 Travelcard, so definitely good value (so thanks to any Pricing Managers reading)! Am going to read more of this forum to find more "sweet spots".
     
  14. infobleep

    infobleep Established Member

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    How much less busy are the Basingstoke and Alton trains? This stop at Surbiton twice an hour for each destination but only once an hour at Clapham Junction for each destination. For the other train it skips Clapham Junction but not Surbiton.

    Of course they would be within their rights to include Surbiton in the restrictions stations list.
     
    Last edited: 15 Jan 2017
  15. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Nowhere near as busy as the longer distance ones I believe, helped by off-peak capacity typically being 8 cars compared to 5 for the latter.

    I don't think you can overtake if travelling to Woking once you get to Surbiton, as the gap in front of the faster trains are too big to catch up with the stopper before one would have got off but I may be wrong.
     
  16. Peter Mugridge

    Peter Mugridge Established Member

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    Now it's been mentioned on here, watch out for it at the next update!
     
  17. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    I doubt it. Putting such a restriction in at Surbiton achieves nothing.
     
  18. Kite159

    Kite159 Established Member

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    The fasts to Surbiton are a lot less busier after Surbiton once all the Surbiton passengers alight ;)

    The Basingstoke stoppers are overtaken around Weybridge by the Salisbury weasels, and I have heard passengers planning to change at Woking for a tight but doable +5 (ish) to join the Basingstoke stopper.
     
  19. soil

    soil Established Member

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    The media have picked up on this outrageous fare increase http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/south-west-trains-introduces-massive-12454440; basically what SWT had was a structure that went like this:

    Anytime Day Return - Monday-Friday morning peak
    Offpeak Day return - Monday-Friday outside morning peak
    Super-offpeak Day Return - Monday - Friday after 11am outbound, returning outside the evening peak; weekends anytime

    Now they have removed the distinction between Monday-Friday and weekends, so you can no longer buy a super-off-peak ticket on Saturday/Sunday mornings, nor can you return during the non-existent evening peak, so basically they try and trick people into buying more expensive tickets.

    (Note that the weekend and weekday tickets have slightly different conditions, but it's not a big difference).

    It's particularly egregious to do this on Sundays, which are not busy and about one weekend in two are subject to some kind of maintenance work making journeys take twice as long as they should.
     
  20. TEW

    TEW Established Member

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    Weekends are very busy in to Waterloo, there are frequently overcrowding problems. There is a key difference between the Weekday and Weekend restrictions too. The Weekend tickets only bar arrivals at Waterloo between 0930 and 1200. So you can travel early to avoid the restrictions. The times the restrictions apply are generally very busy times at Weekends.
     
  21. Kite159

    Kite159 Established Member

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    The problem I can forsee is heavy loadings on the first "off-peak" trains in the evening.

    Wouldn't want to be in Overton or Whitchurch as the first off-peak train they can catch on a Sunday will be the 20:15 towards Exeter due to the 19:15 skipping those two stations!

    ---------

    On an unrelated note regarding the restriction codes, I have noticed that the SWT website says 18:30 is the end of the peak restriction (https://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/tickets-explained/tickets/super-off-peak/), however if you look at BR Fares the code restriction is "London Terminals: 04:30-10:59, & 16:30-19:00".

    Mistake by whoever encoded the restriction codes?
     
  22. soil

    soil Established Member

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    No, that's the wrong text.

    Actual text:

    http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/UR

    "Not valid on trains arriving: London Terminals: 09:31 – 11:59

    If boarding at the stations below, not valid on trains departing:
    London Terminals: 04:30-10:59 & 16:00-18:30
    Vauxhall: 04:30-11:05 & 16:03-18:35
    Queenstown Road: 04:30-11:05 & 16:03-18:35
    Clapham Junction: 04:30-11:05 & 16:09-18:40
    Any other station in London Zones 1-6 not listed above: 04:30-10:59."
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    They don't seem to have implemented it very well.

    Woking - Radlett is missing a weekend super off-peak ticket, so it's cheaper on a weekday than a weekend. (since they have restricted the weekday ticket for sale on weekends)
     
  23. Starmill

    Starmill Established Member

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    I don't understand why they created a new ticket type. London Midland have a miles better structure whereby the restriction text explains what trains can and can't be used every day. They also have uniform restrictions for Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak (at least north of Rugby) which are the same both ways and in First and Standard class. South West Trains have a variation for all of these different things, exponentially increasing the combination of restrictions they're trying to enforce.

    Then again LM haven't tried to enforce different restrictions on Saturdays and Sundays to weekdays - they're either the same or they don't apply at all. Quite what there is to be gained from SWT having different restrictions for Off-Peak (Day) First and Standard class restrictions is beyond me though. As is the slightly bizarre concept of First Class Weekend Super Off-Peak Day Return (!).

    Then again, this change has had a very odd effect of making it very cheaper to buy one from Basingstoke to Bournemouth than buying XC Weekend First - I bet they haven't agreed to that!

    Previously that would have been £27.80 single plus £10 Weekend First, £37.80. Now it's £29.10.
     
    Last edited: 16 Jan 2017
  24. FenMan

    FenMan Member

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    This is the culmination of a plan that's taken nearly 10 years to implement.

    (Using Woking - Waterloo off peak day returns to illustrate)

    Pre-2008
    Off Peak: £9.80

    2008
    - Off Peak renamed Super Off Peak with weekday morning and evening restrictions added: £9.80
    - New Off Peak tier created at 25% price premium: £12.00

    2017
    - Super Off Peak turned into weekday ticket only: £13.80
    - Weekend Super Off Peak ticket created, with (different) morning and evening restrictions: £13.80
    - Off Peak: £17.50

    It's taken a while, but SWT have succeeded in ramping fares for most off peak travel by 25%, making them very expensive indeed compared with other ToCs. Ker-ching!

    Comparisons for travel into London in Saturday morning "peak" from stations a similar distance from London:-

    No prizes for guessing which TOC is levying the highest fare ...

    £17.50 Woking - Waterloo

    £16.70 Ebbsfleet International - St. Pancras HS1
    £16.50 Beaconsfield - Marylebone
    £13.90 Hemel Hempstead - Euston
    £13.40 Ingatestone - Liverpool Street
    £12.90 Harlow Town - Liverpool Street
    £11.90 Sevenoaks - Charing Cross
    £11.80 Maidenhead - Paddington
    £10.10 Basildon - Fenchurch Street
    £9.20 Horley - Victoria
    £9.10 Knebworth - King's Cross
    £9.10 Harpenden - St. Pancras
     
  25. soil

    soil Established Member

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    Just sent letter to my MP:

     
  26. infobleep

    infobleep Established Member

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    Thinking off the top of my head, does the price reflect the quality of service? I see Govia Thameslink Railway companies, Southeastern Trains notwithstanding, seem to be among the cheapest.
     
  27. Kite159

    Kite159 Established Member

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    And does the price reflect the speed & frequency of the services?
     
  28. FenMan

    FenMan Member

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    Your wish is my command:-

    Also the aim was to list stations equidistant to London.

    Examples of stations further out with good/excellent service:-
    £18.00 (GW) Reading*
    £10.80 (TL), £18.20 Any, Brighton
    £16.90 (GN), £16.60 (AGA), Cambridge
    £13.80 Tonbridge
    £15.80 Chelmsford

    *Hilariously the SWT fare for Reading is more expensive, £18.40, for a far inferior service.

    Now compare with equivalent SWT stations:-
    £24.10 Basingstoke
    £22.40 Farnborough Main
    £36.40 Winchester
    £27.30 Haslemere
    £20.00 Guildford

    I rest my case m'lud
     
  29. soil

    soil Established Member

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    Where are you getting your fares from?

    Reading is:

    FGW:
    £46 SDR
    £27.40 SVR
    £18.70 CDR

    SWT:
    £34.20 SOR
    £32.80 SDR
    £26.90 SVR
    £18.40 CDR
    £18.10 weekday SOD (super off-peak)
    £15.60 weekend SOH (super off-peak)

    None of the SWT fares are really worth it, but they are definitely cheaper, if only 30p (that weekday £18.10 SOD is particularly unappealing)
     
  30. Mag_seven

    Mag_seven Established Member

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    Somehow I get the feeling other TOC's will now try and copy. :(
     
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