Woman sexually assaulted on Highland Chieftain

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by Nevillehill, 20 Aug 2015.

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  1. Nevillehill

    Nevillehill Member

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    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/crime/woman-sexually-assaulted-broad-daylight-6285725

    why did no one help her, this train is usually full.
     
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  3. aformeruser

    aformeruser Veteran Member

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    Bystander effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect

    Less people on the train would mean there would more chance of someone going out of their way to help them.
     
  4. ThePannier

    ThePannier Member

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    Shame nobody helped her. Can't quite understand this ''bystander effect'', would have thought with more people around, there would have been more chance of somebody assisting. But each to their own.
     
  5. aformeruser

    aformeruser Veteran Member

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    The woman wasn't raped but was touched in an inappropriate manner:

    Question is how many people would approach the large rough looking man over his behaviour if they think there is someone else who might intervene if they didn't know the woman in question?
     
    Last edited: 20 Aug 2015
  6. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    The article (and Police Scotland call for witnesses) say that she was 'inappropriately sexually touched' on two occasions so it's possible that people didn't realise what was happening. Especially so if, through shock or fear, she didn't cry out.
     
  7. Antman

    Antman Established Member

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    The full circumstances may not have been obvious to other people, it might have appeared to be a 'domestic'.

    Probably best not to jump to conclusions without knowing the full facts?
     
  8. ThePannier

    ThePannier Member

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    Good point, I didn't consider the fact that others around the carriage may not have seen it taking place. Nevertheless it's unfortunate it happened.
     
  9. meridian2

    meridian2 Established Member

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    Someone has actually tried to qualify why people don't get involved. I'm shocked, I really am! Simple reason, it's called litigation and I am absolutely appalled that someone managed to find time to write the wiki (which is absolute drivel BTW) but not to help the person in distress.

    What a spineless society we have become!
     
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  10. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    I'm pretty sure the person writing the Wikipedia article wasn't watching a crime occur at the same time. :roll:

    It has nothing to do with litigation, and it isn't a new phenomenon - it's basic human nature: If you're the only person there the thought is "I need to do something", if there's a crowd the thought is "Somebody needs to do something." Once one person acts, others will follow.
     
  11. aformeruser

    aformeruser Veteran Member

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    It was after a murder of Kitty Genovese in New York in 1964: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kitty_Genovese that psychologists started analysing why 37 could have done something to prevent the murder but didn't. (Too late to prevent the murder at that point as it had happened.) By making people aware of Bystander Effect you're actually are helping to prevent future incidents because the people who know about it are the ones most likely to break the trend and not be a bystander.
     
    Last edited: 20 Aug 2015
  12. meridian2

    meridian2 Established Member

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    Fine, but there's no way people can know what a collective group of people are feeling when a crime is occurring. It's an extremely naive and prosaic way of trying to explain away people's reasons for being immobile.
     
  13. Nevillehill

    Nevillehill Member

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    That's new york, this is the uk.
     
  14. Antman

    Antman Established Member

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    Oh for goodness sake don't be so melodramatic!

    Presumably you weren't there so how can you say what people should have done?

    Somebody could have gone wading in only to subsequently discover they were husband and wife having a row.
     
  15. 61653 HTAFC

    61653 HTAFC Established Member

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    I wouldn't say the explanation is naive, more that the phenomenon is borne out of naivety.
     
  16. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    Humans are humans.
     
  17. meridian2

    meridian2 Established Member

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    Neither was the author who wrote the article,yet he is quite happy to oversimplify situations and label.them with some ridiculous misnomer.
     
  18. NSEFAN

    NSEFAN Established Member

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    Fear of litigation may have something to do with it but I don't think it's the root cause. People in this country live much more solitary lives compared to a few decades ago, especially in urban areas. In many ways urban life can be extremely lonely. Try talking to a stranger on the tube and see how far you get. If we don't make a habit of reaching out to others then it's no wonder fewer people will be prepared to lend a hand to another person in distress. That's no individual's fault, as nobody chooses the society they're brought up in. It's a side effect of the way in which we live which is vastly different to how our ancestors did as small tribes where everyone looked out for each other.

    In this particular case, we don't actually know how overt the assault was and so it may well have been invisible to most bystanders. I hope however the person responsible is caught, I'm not sure if Mk3 carriages have had CCTV fitted, but Perth station will hopefully have footage of him so he can be traced.
     
  19. aformeruser

    aformeruser Veteran Member

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    Controlled experiments and real life examples have returned the same results around the world, it's not a problem confined to New York.
     
  20. crehld

    crehld Established Member Senior Fares Advisor Associate Staff

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    The Wikipedia article you refer to references a substantial body of academic literature in reputable scientific journals (which is quite a novelty for wikipedia, I'll admit). This would have been based on extensive empirical research by well trained and established researchers, probably experts in their field. Their findings would have been subject to the highest standards of peer review and scrutiny to warrant publication in such journals.

    I'd be interested to see what you have by way of empirical evidence gathered and analysed to the rigours of the scientific method to counter that body of research in order to make the claim that it is "absolute drivel"? Or even to prove the alternative causal motor for non-intervention you suggest (fear of litigation).
     
    Last edited: 20 Aug 2015
  21. SPADTrap

    SPADTrap Established Member

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    Well, you act or do nothing, remember? ;)
     
  22. Antman

    Antman Established Member

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    Exactly, depending on the circumstances!
     
  23. anme

    anme Established Member

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    Please could you explain exactly who would sue whom, and on what grounds?

    Thanks.
     
  24. Llanigraham

    Llanigraham On Moderation

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    What on earth has litigation got to do with it?
     
  25. meridian2

    meridian2 Established Member

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    All of which you believe? Academics always question, never reiterate, and this, based on the fact it has quoted numerous papers, is now coming from a third-hand source on a website renowned for it's lack of probity and transparency.
     
  26. 47271

    47271 Established Member

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    Clearly I've no idea what happened here but it reads similarly to an incident I witnessed on a train out of Waterloo, and ending at a major outer suburban station, around 20 years ago.

    Firstly, you don't sit watching the behaviour and interaction of every passenger in a crowded carriage. I was reading and was vaguely aware of what sounded like an odd conversation several seats away from me, but you overhear a lot of odd things on trains.

    As the train approached the next calling point, I was aware that the offender quickly left the seat and was ready to alight from the train as soon as the doors were released. As he did so, but not before, the victim, who was also travelling to the same station, became visibly and audibly upset and it was only then that I understood what had happened. I was also getting off so, with others, I asked her if I could help. I accompanied her to find the guard, who held the train until the police arrived - fortunately this was a station with a BTP office - and we went to view CCTV coverage. I don't recall a conversation about CCTV on the train itself, there probably wasn't in that era. We quickly found a clear image of the offender leaving the station. I provided a witness statement and left.

    I wasn't given the opportunity to intervene earlier but if I had, I would've had to consider the possibility of the incident becoming violent rather than physical.
     
  27. aformeruser

    aformeruser Veteran Member

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    You can always buy the original books if you prefer.
     
  28. DaleCooper

    DaleCooper Established Member

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    I couldn't understand this bit, would you mind explaining?
     
  29. crehld

    crehld Established Member Senior Fares Advisor Associate Staff

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    My point was the content of the Wikipedia article is drawn from established academic study. Your assertions appear not to be.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Indeed. The key work on this phenomenon is:

    - Darley, J. M. & Latané, B. (1968). Bystander intervention in emergencies: Diffusion of responsibility. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 8, 377-383.

    This should be accessible from your nearest academic library. Several studies (far too numerous to list here) have since proven Darley and Latané's findings and found applicability in a range of contemporary situations.
     
    Last edited: 20 Aug 2015
  30. meridian2

    meridian2 Established Member

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    It doesn't explain why a collection of people are immobilised when it comes to being labelled as 'bystanders'. By what right do these academic works have to call these people 'bystanders' when they're viewing each situation from a wholly impersonal standpoint.

    Having situations labelled is a superficial way of explaining away complex human reactions and interactions, and I simply do not believe in such an 'effect'.
     
  31. anme

    anme Established Member

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    I understand that you prefer the 'litigation' theory to explain such behaviour. I would very much like you to explain that in detail.
     
    Last edited: 20 Aug 2015
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