Woolwich/Sidcup Rounders: What Destination Should They Show?

[cle]

I can't see how this is that confusing, these services have run like this for years, in addition to Dartford.

And to be honest, most people on the outer parts of these lines are from these parts and know the various routes... it's not like there are many tourist attractions (Bluewater wouldn't be impacted). As many have said, this is for operational convenience, and to avoid everything going to Dartford, and locals will drive/bus/cycle N/S routes, like Erith to Bexleyheath.

 

[Western Sunset]

It was fun and games on the Kingston circulars a couple of years ago when Waterloo was closed for the summer. With trains reversing, the onboard PIS didn't match up with reality at all. "We are now arriving at Teddington". Oh no we're not, we've just approaching Hampton Wick........

 

[norbitonflyer]

If the CIS and PIS matched perfectly that would be the ideal, however that would require PIS being changed at regular intervals which might irk drivers, especially if they've only got 30 sec dwell times.

Why would the drivers have to do it? On SWR it seems to be run off GPS (which admittedly occasionally leads to odd results when the train thinks it's inbound (on the up Windsor) when it's actually outbound (on the down Main) or vice versa). Far from controlling it, the train crew are evidently unaware of the PIS's behaviour.

 

[ComUtoR]

Why would the drivers have to do it?

Because the PIS is built that way. The Driver is given a code on their diagram and then input it to the onboard PIS machine.

On SWR it seems to be run off GPS (which admittedly occasionally leads to odd results when the train thinks it's inbound (on the up Windsor) when it's actually outbound (on the down Main) or vice versa).

The SE version also runs off the GPS.

Far from controlling it, the train crew are evidently unaware of the PIS's behaviour.

What you see is the result of the PIS changing. What also happens is that when the PIS changes. Passengers pull the passcom because they think the train has been diverted. You also get passengers coming up to the cab window asking where the train is going because they believe the train is terminating or they aren't sure if they are on the right train. When the PIS doesn't match where the train is going it causes problems.

The onboard PIS works the best when it shows a single direction. It is the best reflection of what the passengers are actually doing. When you get to Slade Green you need the PIS to state the train is going to Cannon Or Charing Cross. At Slade Green the service becomes a Slade Green to Cannon/Cross so the most honest and realistic PIS display will be whatever the stopping pattern is with the train terminating at Cross or Cannon. SE Metro tend to run into or out of London. Even the rounders are still Up+Down. The aren't thought of as 'circulars'

I used to drive the Sutton Loops down from St Albans and into Blackfriars. Keeping it simple as 'Via Wimbledon' is all that's needed because it reflects passenger behaviour. Same with anything going through 'The Core'. There is a clear split with passengers going into London and those going outwards. The trains empty out in the middle bit but have a small overlap in the core. Passengers see where its going 'Via' and get that train accordingly. The loop ends or only lightly used and tend to be used by locals who know where they are going.

Via Sidcup, Via Bexley'eaf, or Via Woolwich is all that's needed as it clearly defines the direction of travel. Flip it over at the bottom end of the loop and have it reflect that 'This is the service to London Cannon/Cross' because that best represents the passenger and the service. The CIS only needs to avoid a situation where you have the up and down platform both showing as Cannon/Cross.

Personally I don't care what the CIS says as I rarely trust it and I tend to know what train I need before I get to the station. (just like the majority of commuters) What I do care about is that when I'm on the train, it's telling me what the train is doing and not giving me information I need some kind of inside knowledge to work out.

When I'm on a train as a passenger I love to people watch. People on the train rely heavily on what the PIS is saying. When someone wants to know where the train is going, they look to the onboard information.

I freely accept the Tube method and as I already mentioned, you are pretty much always going a few stops. You only care about direction and its backed up by the intuitive mapping system. I get to a tube station check where I'm going (line name) and then see if I need north/south/east/west. The entire system seems to be geared to what the passenger needs. I'm going 4/5 stops at best and I only need local information. I couldn't tell you where my tube service goes. Only that I get to Embankment, check the map and go left or right down the stairs to the platform. I have zero idea where my train is going. I get the next one that arrives, go a few stops and then get off. Trains are different as they lean towards an end to end mentality. I go towards or away from London with a huge emphasis on 'Via' direction of travel. Towards London is going to work; away from London is going home.

I've always found SE Metro to be awful for locals. I've lived in Kent for 30yrs and local travel via train is crap. Trains go into or out of London so nothing goes across the County. Going from Sidcup to Bexleyheath is far quicker and more convenient by bus/car than train. Orpington to Swanley is a Drama Lama and going to any of the town centres is better by car/bus because the stations are so far away from their town centres. People who are going across the county are taking the bus. Passengers aren't taking the trains round the loops. It's an infinitesimal number of passengers going round the loops. At best its passengers going 1/2 stops and as @MikeWh stated there are The Charlton home games to consider.

 

[Horizon22]

Why would the drivers have to do it? On SWR it seems to be run off GPS (which admittedly occasionally leads to odd results when the train thinks it's inbound (on the up Windsor) when it's actually outbound (on the down Main) or vice versa). Far from controlling it, the train crew are evidently unaware of the PIS's behaviour.

I don't know about all of SWR's stock, and it may be true that some newer stock may do it by GPS, but SE's 465/466 certainly don't.

 

[Horizon22]

I've always found SE Metro to be awful for locals. I've lived in Kent for 30yrs and local travel via train is crap. Trains go into or out of London so nothing goes across the County. Going from Sidcup to Bexleyheath is far quicker and more convenient by bus/car than train. Orpington to Swanley is a Drama Lama and going to any of the town centres is better by car/bus because the stations are so far away from their town centres. People who are going across the county are taking the bus. Passengers aren't taking the trains round the loops. It's an infinitesimal number of passengers going round the loops. At best its passengers going 1/2 stops and as @MikeWh stated there are The Charlton home games to consider.

Off-topic but I wouldn't say this is just a Kent / SE London isolated issue. Lots of home counties or Outer London have very poor orbital routes and are focused on various branches from a mainline into a London terminal.

 

[island]

Can outbound rounders from London be described as circulars? I didn't think you were allowed to leave London and travel round the far end of the circle due to the negative easement?

000044 Journeys from or via London and via Crayford and Slade Green, Slade Green and Barnehurst or Barnehurst and Crayford are not valid. This applies in both directions

You can’t, but you could go from (say) New Cross to Hither Green the long way round.

 

[Dr_Paul]

I don't know about all of SWR's stock, and it may be true that some newer stock may do it by GPS, but SE's 465/466 certainly don't.

I've been on 455s when the system has got things severely wrong, on one occasion announcing that the down train on which I was travelling was all stations to Waterloo and reading them all out, and only getting it right after reaching New Malden. I once heard a wonderfully convoluted announcement on a 707 at Twickenham which was repeated at Strawberry Hill and Teddington, but corrected itself after then. Most of the time, however, the announcements on 455s and 707s I've heard have been fine (excluding of course that infernal simpering 'sorted' woman, but that's for another thread).

 

[Sceptre]

The vast majority look for the via signs, but for those not in the know it is much much easier to hide the full destination, otherwise you confuse passengers unnecessarily. People before Lewisham don't actually need to know if it's a circular unless there's some form of serious service disruption blocking a line (in which case trains would probably terminate early anyway / be cancelled)

I believe this is how it works on Northern too; the CIS screens would display a Harrogate line train as the "xx48 to Poppleton' to dissuade people taking the slow way to York.