Worcestershire Parkway station progress

Class172

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I think when I worked it out in the past, running non-stop (based on the few XC trains that already use that route) it takes 20 mins extra - making that 25 mins once you factor in a stop at Shrub Hill. I guess a stop at Worcestershire Parkway would add 5 mins once you account for braking/stop/accelerating?
It isn't and has been stated already, it is 15 minutes plus. Consider Stoke Works to Abbotswood at 90 odd compared to trundling over to Droitwich, on to Worcester plus a stop, out to Norton and Abbotswood again and getting back up to speed. It isn't insignificant.
Here is the proof for what we've being saying - http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C75532/2014/07/10/advanced - 25 mins.

Roll back to when I joined the forum and I'd be screaming for them to go via Worcester, but I've improved (at least I think I have) since then. :lol:
 
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Minilad

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As a XC driver who signs all the routes being discussed I need only point you in the direction of the first 3 trains out of New St to Cheltenham.
The 0500 goes via Kidderminster and Worcester and takes 1 hr and 1 min
The 0537 goes via The camp hill line then Bromsgrove, Droitwich and Worcester with a stop at Ashchurch. This takes 59 mins
The 0712 goes direct and takes 38 mins
And remember that is at silly o'clock with not much to get in the way. Paths in the daytime could be much harder to find
 

Old Hill Bank

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As a XC driver who signs all the routes being discussed I need only point you in the direction of the first 3 trains out of New St to Cheltenham.
The 0500 goes via Kidderminster and Worcester and takes 1 hr and 1 min
The 0537 goes via The camp hill line then Bromsgrove, Droitwich and Worcester with a stop at Ashchurch. This takes 59 mins
The 0712 goes direct and takes 38 mins
And remember that is at silly o'clock with not much to get in the way. Paths in the daytime could be much harder to find
Good stats, thanks Minilad.

Conclusion: Stops at Parkway are the answer with the required route knowledge stuff over other routes to maintain the diversion capability.
 

deltic08

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I recall in the 1980s/early 90s under Regional Railways Central that the Birmingham to Cardiff service ran via Worcester. The calling pattern was something like Cradley Heath, Stourbridge Junction, Kidderminster, Droitwich Spa, Worcester Shrub Hill, Cheltenham Spa, Gloucester, Lydney, Chepstow, Caldicot, Newport, and Cardiff Central.

This was in the days when the 156 (or was it 155?) Sprinters were first introduced.

The amount of extra journey time that would be added to the present day Nottingham - Cardiff service if it was diverted between Bromsgrove and Cheltenham to run via Worcester Shrub Hill would be I believe very little.

In peace

Adam
Originally it was a 150/1 and I used it out of novelty travelling from BNS to Lydney without changing at Cheltenham or Gloucester but was not a first choice route or stock.

Diverting Cardiff-Nottinghams via Worcester would add at least 20 minutes to overall journey times even if there was capacity between Droitwich and Bromsgrove. Not good.
 

anthony263

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If ATW had additional stock could the Maesteg/Cardiff - Cheltenham services be extended to Worcester?

I do apreciate that there would be other things which could prevent this
 

Old Hill Bank

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What a good idea. Welcome to the World of Pacers.
By the time Parkway is done FGW 165/166 could be an option, faster units with the line speed stuff going on. much better for pathing one would think.

ps you win the prize for being first to mention pacers on this thread, we all knew someone would.
 
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deltic08

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By the time Parkway is done FGW 165/166 could be an option, faster units with the line speed stuff going on. much better for pathing one would think.

ps you win the prize for being first to mention pacers on this thread, we all knew someone would.
Pleased not to disappoint. I like to share them around. Why should the North and South Wales enjoy them all the time.
 

Class 170101

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-28261027

Worcestershire Parkway railway station wins funding

A long-awaited new rail station has won millions of pounds of government funding.

The Worcestershire Parkway Station, planned for Norton, is among projects to benefit from £34.1m from 2016 onwards, under the Growth Deal.

The aim is to reduce journey times to London to under two hours.

The £17.1m project is earmarked for a site at the intersection of railway lines to Birmingham, Bristol and London at junction seven of the M5.
'Huge step'

The Conservative leader of the county council Adrian Hardman said he hoped the station could become reality by 2017.

He said: "We are finally getting our moons aligned."

West Worcestershire Conservative MP Harriett Baldwin said this was one scheme on which the county's long-term economic plan depended.

She said: "This is a huge step forward."
 

route:oxford

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And we have an election next year, and I'm not cynical!!
It's just the way it will always work out.

From start of election, through analysis, planning and NIMBYS - it will always be about 4 years until projects are ready.

If we elected for 8-10 years then things might actually get done.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Projects like this should survive a change of government, especially if there is a local contribution.
It's the big projects yet to start we have to worry about - eg HS2 and Crossrail 2.
 

jimm

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The record of Parkway stations is not stellar.
For every Bristol Parkway there are several like Alfreton & Mansfield, East Midlands, even Liverpool South, which still do not generate the traffic that was promised in their business case.
Stopping Cardiff-Nottingham feels like a toe in the water for XC. If it works, they can always stop more.
I don't see connections working, any more than they do at Tamworth, at the frequency offered.
Where do they think new traffic for the Cotswold line will come from?
It's easy enough to drive to Shrub Hill or Evesham for existing services.
For Birmingham there will be the new station at Bromsgrove providing 2tph or better.
Perhaps before making statements like

It's easy enough to drive to Shrub Hill or Evesham for existing services
you should do some basic research.

Car parking provision at Shrub Hill is all of 120 spaces, in a city of 100,000 people (parking at Foregate Street, zero). And this is a city with terrible traffic problems in the peaks.

Car parking at Evesham, 70 spaces, which is why, since 2006, FGW has added extra stops at Pershore and Honeybourne to spread the burden in that area, not that provision at either of those places is great either, with efforts to expand Pershore's car park being a long-running nightmare.

This is not to say that Parkway is exactly a stroke of genius either. So sceptical about it have many parties been that this idea has been kicking around since the late 1970s. Even now it's the county council, not the rail industry, that is driving it forward, never mind it will be a traffic magnet of huge proportions and council plans for any related road improvements are theoretical at best.

And while they bang on about wanting faster trains to London, the council doesn't want to accept that an extra stop is going to cost time - or you face up to the next logical step, which is to close Shrub Hill, which is badly located for the city centre, and, other than its small car park, doesn't have much else going for it.

In isolation, the Parkway station makes very little sense.

If it formed part of a package for the whole of Worcestershire, with Worcester area resignalling (including a turnback in the station at Great Malvern) and redoubling to Evesham, allowing Great Malvern or Droitwich/Kidderminster to central Worcester, Parkway and Evesham shuttles to run, overlaid on the Cotswold Line service to give a near turn-up-and-go service between the city centre (and destinations elsewhere in the county) and the Parkway, then it might make sense.

In isolation, I'm afraid it's just a piece of grandstanding by the council, aided and abetted by local MPs, which will do nothing to solve broader transport issues throughout the county, nor that much to improve rail connections. It really doesn't matter what services XC stop there, the trains they operate on any of their routes passing Norton don't have the capacity to handle lots more passengers - and the key rail traffic flow at Worcester, as others have noted, is to/from Birmingham.
 

Class172

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Car parking provision at Shrub Hill is all of 120 spaces, in a city of 100,000 people (parking at Foregate Street, zero). And this is a city with terrible traffic problems in the peaks.

Car parking at Evesham, 70 spaces, which is why, since 2006, FGW has added extra stops at Pershore and Honeybourne to spread the burden in that area, not that provision at either of those places is great either, with efforts to expand Pershore's car park being a long-running nightmare.
Agreed, parking for stations in Worcestershire in general is very limited (perhaps with the exception of Kidderminster) - the situation is worst for Worcester by far.

And while they bang on about wanting faster trains to London, the council doesn't want to accept that an extra stop is going to cost time - or you face up to the next logical step, which is to close Shrub Hill, which is badly located for the city centre, and, other than its small car park, doesn't have much else going for it.
Shrub Hill would prove a bit of a conundrum, since a private investor is planning a large redevelopment of the area, to complement and help develop the purpose of the station.

If it formed part of a package for the whole of Worcestershire, with Worcester area resignalling (including a turnback in the station at Great Malvern) and redoubling to Evesham, allowing Great Malvern or Droitwich/Kidderminster to central Worcester, Parkway and Evesham shuttles to run, overlaid on the Cotswold Line service to give a near turn-up-and-go service between the city centre (and destinations elsewhere in the county) and the Parkway, then it might make sense.
Before the plans for Parkway had developed a few years ago, there were aspirational plans of introducing a 3tph service between Malvern/Droitwich Spa - Worcester - Parkway, with tram-trains. If planned correctly, it could be done using stock in a triangular service (ie Malvern>Worcester>Droitwich>Worcester>parkway> Worcester...) - it would then function as a useful P&R service. However, all that relies on a number of unknowns.

and the key rail traffic flow at Worcester, as others have noted, is to/from Birmingham.
Arguably, that's more a matter of suppressed demand - it is likely that there is little traffic on other flows because the service is poorer (particularly southwards). Therefore more people travel into Birmingham in order to change onto other services - even factoring for that B'ham will still be the majority flow, but others would be more significant.
 

jimm

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Arguably, that's more a matter of suppressed demand - it is likely that there is little traffic on other flows because the service is poorer (particularly southwards). Therefore more people travel into Birmingham in order to change onto other services - even factoring for that B'ham will still be the majority flow, but others would be more significant.
While I would agree the bloody awful service towards Gloucestershire and Bristol/Cardiff suppresses demand, the fact remains that Birmingham is the key regional centre and if all you achieve by building Parkway is to move people out of the city stations in their cars to Norton, on the promise of faster journeys into Birmingham, when the trains on the XC route are inadequate even for current demand too much of the time, never mind adding Worcester commuters to the mix, you have a recipe for chaos.

On the London route, while there are clearly people who now go via Birmingham or drive to Warwick Parkway, I suspect that many of them would never ever set foot on an FGW service, even with the IEP target of a standard two-hour London timing, unless they run non-stop between Worcester and Oxford, due to all those frightful intermediate stops - at places that added together generate far more revenue for FGW than Worcester ever will.
 

Old Hill Bank

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While I would agree the bloody awful service towards Gloucestershire and Bristol/Cardiff suppresses demand, the fact remains that Birmingham is the key regional centre and if all you achieve by building Parkway is to move people out of the city stations in their cars to Norton, on the promise of faster journeys into Birmingham, when the trains on the XC route are inadequate even for current demand too much of the time, never mind adding Worcester commuters to the mix, you have a recipe for chaos.

On the London route, while there are clearly people who now go via Birmingham or drive to Warwick Parkway, I suspect that many of them would never ever set foot on an FGW service, even with the IEP target of a standard two-hour London timing, unless they run non-stop between Worcester and Oxford, due to all those frightful intermediate stops - at places that added together generate far more revenue for FGW than Worcester ever will.
Firstly I would say that the commuting thing has been explained in a previous post on this thread. Secondly the point of the station is to provide Inter City connectivity to Worcestershire (also covered in this thread) and finally the London stuff to do with Warwick Parkway has no relevance to this.
 

Class172

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Also, we have been covering how to deter Worcester commuters from using the XC services just to get to Birmingham, however nobody seems to have commented on my suggestion, hence I still have no idea if it is credible as a solution.
 

Llanigraham

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While I would agree the bloody awful service towards Gloucestershire and Bristol/Cardiff suppresses demand, the fact remains that Birmingham is the key regional centre and if all you achieve by building Parkway is to move people out of the city stations in their cars to Norton, on the promise of faster journeys into Birmingham, when the trains on the XC route are inadequate even for current demand too much of the time, never mind adding Worcester commuters to the mix, you have a recipe for chaos.

On the London route, while there are clearly people who now go via Birmingham or drive to Warwick Parkway, I suspect that many of them would never ever set foot on an FGW service, even with the IEP target of a standard two-hour London timing, unless they run non-stop between Worcester and Oxford, due to all those frightful intermediate stops - at places that added together generate far more revenue for FGW than Worcester ever will.
You might be quite surprised how many people commute from Worcester to Cheltenham and Gloucester!
 

Class 170101

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Would it not be quicker for FGW to run a service from Worcester to London via Cheltenham and Kemble post re-doubling rather than via their current routing?
 

Buttsy

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Would it not be quicker for FGW to run a service from Worcester to London via Cheltenham and Kemble post re-doubling rather than via their current routing?
Currently the odd couple of services that go that way take about 10-15 mins longer than the quickest services over the Cotswold lline, most of which I guess is taken by the reversal at Gloucester.
 

DarloRich

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Soooooooooo only those from the West Midlands may comment then? You may not have an opinion as a mere consumer of the long distance services suggested for alteration. Unlucky. Here I go:

You live in a small commuter town on a branch line. Deal with it. That small commuter town has a very good service to the local economic centre (Birmingham). I would argue that these services adequately cater for the true demand and passenger flow in this area.

That said this new station will offer some enhanced connectivity and service provision. It seems sensible to stop the more “local” XC services there to allow connections into the longer distance services. IF the passenger number show that this idea is sensible then more services can be called on to stop there. The decision to stop all services there rests on the following questions:

Does the number of potential passengers produced by this station offset the number of passengers lost by an increased long distance journey time? Can the existing services handle an increase in passenger numbers? Is the loss of service/operational flexibility worth the increased connectivity offered to the local communities? What is the impact upon both the XC, regional and wider national timetable? What extra resilience/contingency must be built into these timetables to allow for extra station calls?

My view is that the balance will come down heavily in favour of not stopping long distance XC services here.
 

Old Hill Bank

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Soooooooooo only those from the West Midlands may comment then? You may not have an opinion as a mere consumer of the long distance services suggested for alteration. Unlucky. Here I go:

You live in a small commuter town on a branch line. Deal with it. That small commuter town has a very good service to the local economic centre (Birmingham). I would argue that these services adequately cater for the true demand and passenger flow in this area.

That said this new station will offer some enhanced connectivity and service provision. It seems sensible to stop the more “local” XC services there to allow connections into the longer distance services. IF the passenger number show that this idea is sensible then more services can be called on to stop there. The decision to stop all services there rests on the following questions:

Does the number of potential passengers produced by this station offset the number of passengers lost by an increased long distance journey time? Can the existing services handle an increase in passenger numbers? Is the loss of service/operational flexibility worth the increased connectivity offered to the local communities? What is the impact upon both the XC, regional and wider national timetable? What extra resilience/contingency must be built into these timetables to allow for extra station calls?

My view is that the balance will come down heavily in favour of not stopping long distance XC services here.
I think the debate about stopping long distance trains is a valid one and quite right that people passing through the county will not want any time penalty or the risk of any additional crowding issues. We use the railways on here and would prefer it if we could get to our chosen destinations that bit sooner, but if you take this argument further you could end up with Derby-Exeter passengers asking why the train has to stop at Taunton etc. etc. To get value out of the investment there needs to be an attractive service with long distance stuff serving the station.
 

Unixman

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I think the debate about stopping long distance trains is a valid one and quite right that people passing through the county will not want any time penalty or the risk of any additional crowding issues. We use the railways on here and would prefer it if we could get to our chosen destinations that bit sooner, but if you take this argument further you could end up with Derby-Exeter passengers asking why the train has to stop at Taunton etc. etc. To get value out of the investment there needs to be an attractive service with long distance stuff serving the station.
Indeed.

So let's not stop at any small commuter town. Goodbye Burton, Stafford, Tamworth, Nuneaton, Chesterfield .... All of which have populations less than that of Worcester. I suspect the list could grow somewhat as well.

BTW Worcester is a city not a town.
 
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Class172

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You live in a small commuter town on a branch line. Deal with it. That small commuter town has a very good service to the local economic centre (Birmingham). I would argue that these services adequately cater for the true demand and passenger flow in this area.
BTW Worcester is a city not a town.
They have managed to correctly describe Droitwich Spa, which is a quarter the size of Worcester, and doesn't suffer the same problems the city does... :|
 

Grumpy

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Car parking provision at Shrub Hill is all of 120 spaces, in a city of 100,000 people (parking at Foregate Street, zero). And this is a city with terrible traffic problems in the peaks.

.
Is there nothing that can be done at Shrub Hill? Could railway land to the east of the station be made into car parking? I've not been to Shrub Hill for a few years, so not sure what's there now
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Indeed.

So let's not stop at any small commuter town. Goodbye Burton, Stafford, Tamworth, Nuneaton, Chesterfield .... All of which have populations less than that of Worcester. I suspect the list could grow somewhat as well.

BTW Worcester is a city not a town.
Knocking off the stops at some of those would offset the extra journey time of going round the Worcester loop and give a bigger potential market.
 

Old Hill Bank

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Indeed.

So let's not stop at any small commuter town. Goodbye Burton, Stafford, Tamworth, Nuneaton, Chesterfield .... All of which have populations less than that of Worcester. I suspect the list could grow somewhat as well.

BTW Worcester is a city not a town.
Quite right and don't forget the long distance connectivity that the rest of the county needs.

The other analogy I must add is the Plymouth-Scotland services go via Leeds with a major time penalty but we all understand that West Yorkshire needs a direct service to Scotland. Please accept that Worcestershire also needs connectivity.
 

The Planner

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Knocking off the stops at some of those would offset the extra journey time of going round the Worcester loop and give a bigger potential market.
Knocking out Chesterfield, Burton and Tamworth still wouldn't offset going round the loop. I doubt adding Derby to that would do it but that leaves you with Sheffield to Birmingham non stop.
 

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