Working out valid route(s) to London Zones for season ticket

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infobleep

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How would one work out which route(s) are valid for for a Station X to London Zones 4 to 6 season ticket when X is outside of London and isn't a routing point. The ticket type would be any permitted.

I know a fares check would be required but there doesn't seem to be day travel cards to London zones 4 to 6 to check.

Cheers

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Bletchleyite

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This is something that is for an awful lot of debate and doesn't seem to be entirely clear in how it is documented.

One take: you can follow Permitted Routes to London Terminals, then do what you want within zones 4-6 once you pass into zone 6. If you take this approach you are very unlikely to hit problems, but it might be inconvenient for your destination.

Another take: you can choose any destination in any of Zones 4-6 and follow Permitted Routes to that destination as they would be if you had purchased a point to point ticket. This one may result in arguments if the point you choose is an obscure one on the opposite side of the Zones and you try an obscure route while outside the Zones (inside them you can of course do what you like).

Not sure about the fares check. You could perhaps compare 4-6 season fares from the routeing points with your station to at least get an idea as to which routeing points should not be relevant.
 

Paul Kelly

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You can choose any "boundary" station at the outer edge of zone 6 as the "destination", and use any permitted route from the origin station to it that doesn't pass through any other stations within the zones before reaching the boundary station. This is the official instruction given by ATOC to developers of electronic journey planners.
 

Andrew1395

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It's all the permitted routes from X to any station in zone 6 without previously crossing the boundary.
 

infobleep

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Thank you for all your replies. So basically you look at any boundary station in zone 6 and then workout the valid route to that point.

I take it one would be allowed to break their journey on any of the permitted routes to the zone 6 station or stop and start short etc.

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PermitToTravel

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I take it one would be allowed to break their journey on any of the permitted routes to the zone 6 station or stop and start short etc.

On a season, yeah, absolutely
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This one may result in arguments if the point you choose is an obscure one on the opposite side of the Zones and you try an obscure route while outside the Zones (inside them you can of course do what you like).

I've never found any that permit circumnavigating London - pretty much always, the permitted routes require you to enter / go through it
 

Paul Kelly

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I've never found any that permit circumnavigating London - pretty much always, the permitted routes require you to enter / go through it
Indeed - the most "extreme" I've come across is Reading to Coulsdon South via Guildford and Redhill, and that isn't really very extreme at all and is a perfectly reasonable route - evidenced by the fact that is a permitted route!
 

infobleep

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You can choose any "boundary" station at the outer edge of zone 6 as the "destination", and use any permitted route from the origin station to it that doesn't pass through any other stations within the zones before reaching the boundary station. This is the official instruction given by ATOC to developers of electronic journey planners.
Does the fares check need to be applied at all?

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--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If a route in the yellow pages is listed as London, does one have to go towards the London terminal stations via the most direct route?

I'm just trying to get head round how this might work in theory.

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PermitToTravel

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Does the fares check need to be applied at all?
If your origin station or your z6 boundary station isn't a routing point, you need to apply the fares check to determine which routing points you may use to calculate permitted routes

If a route in the yellow pages is listed as London, does one have to go towards the London terminal stations via the most direct route?

I'm just trying to get head round how this might work in theory.

No, you may use any permitted route to London. If you're talking about calculating the routes to a boundary station, and the only option is London, then you cannot use that boundary station without going via London.

If you wouldn't mind posting the ticket you had in mind we'd be able to enumerate all the possible routes for you, by PM if you'd prefer not to publicise where you live :)
 

infobleep

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I will send a PM. I don't have any particular stations in mind but I might mention a station others would prefer not to be mentioned if you know what I mean.

Edit: You've actually answered my questions and it perfect makes sense. It's what I thought once I started looking into it.

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John @ home

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If a route in the yellow pages is listed as London, does one have to go towards the London terminal stations via the most direct route?
No. The National Routeing Guide Instructions tell us:
If the routeing code is "LONDON", for all journeys via London you will need to cross reference routeing codes applicable "to London" with the code for the "from London" leg of the journey.

If the routeing code is "LONDON", journeys include the cost of cross-London transfer either by London Underground or Thameslink services. In all cases the transfer points should be along the correct line of route given by the ‘permitted route’ map combinations.

http://iblocks-rg-publication.s3-website-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/nrg_instructions.pdf
Note that this instruction applies only to tickets valid via London Terminals. It does not apply to "a Station X to London Zones 4 to 6 season ticket", which is not valid via London Terminals.

The best definition we have on the validity of that ticket between Station X and Boundary Zone 6 (assuming the ticket is valid by any permitted route) is from this thread in 2012:
OwlMan said:
The advice that I received from ATOC is as follows
An external Boundary Zones 6 ticket is valid as below:
It is only valid if used with a valid Travelcard/Freedom pass that covers zone 6.
It is valid to the first crossing of the outer boundary of Zone 6, using any permitted route (observing any fare related restriction) to any station within zones 1-6 that the associated Travelcard/Freedom pass is valid to.
 

infobleep

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No. The National Routeing Guide Instructions tell us:Note that this instruction applies only to tickets valid via London Terminals. It does not apply to "a Station X to London Zones 4 to 6 season ticket", which is not valid via London Terminals.

The best definition we have on the validity of that ticket between Station X and Boundary Zone 6 (assuming the ticket is valid by any permitted route) is from this thread in 2012:
Thanks. I understand it all much better. I enjoy getting a better understanding of the routing guide. Even when I might not use it for some of the uses I learn about I find it fascinating.

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