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Worrying about Covid while travelling on busy trains during half term.

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NARobertson

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Today I intended to travel from Worle to Bristol Parkway but aborted my journey at Bristol Temple Meads. This was because the two trains I boarded there were full and standing, offering an ideal covid breeding ground. One of these trains was a Cross-Country and this company is still offering only a half-timetable of trains from Bristol northwards. Nor have they extended the lengths of the trains they do still run. It was obvious with school holidays that this would be a busier week. I appreciate that the railways have probably lost the bigger half of their business but behaving like this is likely to lead to further loss of business.
 
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PHILIPE

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Today I intended to travel from Worle to Bristol Parkway but aborted my journey at Bristol Temple Meads. This was because the two trains I boarded there were full and standing, offering an ideal covid breeding ground. One of these trains was a Cross-Country and this company is still offering only a half-timetable of trains from Bristol northwards. Nor have they extended the lengths of the trains they do still run. It was obvious with school holidays that this would be a busier week. I appreciate that the railways have probably lost the bigger half of their business but behaving like this is likely to lead to further loss of business.

Trains are like this are all over the country in many places and I have read in many quotes that, surprising as it may seem, trains are not actually breeding grounds and people are quite happy to travel them although some with trepidation.
 

221129

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One of these trains was a Cross-Country and this company is still offering only a half-timetable of trains from Bristol northwards. Nor have they extended the lengths of the trains they do still run.
Ermm yes they have. That's why you still have the reduced timetable. But I've never known XC to call at Worle heading to Bristol...

This was because the two trains I boarded there were full and standing, offering an ideal covid breeding ground.
I think you'll need to do a bit more research. Studies so far have not found traces of COVID19 on trains or stations.
 

WelshBluebird

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Ermm yes they have. That's why you still have the reduced timetable.
In theory. That doesn't mean services are never shortformed though, and because of the cuts to the service, a short formed service gets very very busy very quickly.
 

221129

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In theory. That doesn't mean services are never shortformed though, and because of the cuts to the service, a short formed service gets very very busy very quickly.
There were no short forms on that route today for XC. But again let's not let the facts get in the way of a rant.
 

TUC

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Today I intended to travel from Worle to Bristol Parkway but aborted my journey at Bristol Temple Meads. This was because the two trains I boarded there were full and standing, offering an ideal covid breeding ground. One of these trains was a Cross-Country and this company is still offering only a half-timetable of trains from Bristol northwards. Nor have they extended the lengths of the trains they do still run. It was obvious with school holidays that this would be a busier week. I appreciate that the railways have probably lost the bigger half of their business but behaving like this is likely to lead to further loss of business.
Can you please cite specific scientific evidence that such trains are 'an ideal covid breeding ground'. It sounds the kind of unevidenced assertion that belongs to the more panic-stricken sections of the media.
 

NARobertson

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Ermm yes they have. That's why you still have the reduced timetable. But I've never known XC to call at Worle heading to Bristol...


I think you'll need to do a bit more research. Studies so far have not found traces of COVID19 on trains or stations.
I travelled on a GWR train from Worle to Bristol Temple Meads but had to change there for Bristol Parkway. The first possibility was a GWR train going to Gloucester, while the second was a Cross-Country for Aberdeen but with only five coaches.

Covid has not been found in many places but its presence can be inferred from the high numbers of infections and deaths still occurring. Few of these cases can be matched with where or when the original infection took place. Many people on trains do not wear masks. Head to head distances in indoor settings are probably important in transmission. Many scientists consider a distance of 6 ft as being significant and a duration of perhaps in the region of 10 to 15 minutes. Ventilation is probably better at the ends of coaches on trains that frequently stop, thus admitting fresh air through open doors. Few coaches now have opening windows and the effects of air-conditioning, good or bad, are largely unknown.
 
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SynthD

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I think their point was a space where customers can't social distance.

Did all services run? (RTT suggests yes) Would they normally run more for half term? Do they have the working staff to do more this year?
 

Darandio

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Covid has not been found in many places but its presence can be inferred from the high numbers of infections and deaths still occuring. Many people on trains do not wear masks. Ventilation is probably better at the ends of coaches on trains that frequently stop, thus admitting fresh air through open doors. Few coaches now have opening windows and the effects of air-conditioning, good or bad, is largely unknown.

It's abundantly clear that public transport isn't really for you right now. Whilst that may be blunt it's the situation we are in right now, the railway cannot readily bend over backwards to make empty space available for those who can't bear to be near anyone else.
 

fishwomp

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Ermm yes they have. That's why you still have the reduced timetable. But I've never known XC to call at Worle heading to Bristol...


I think you'll need to do a bit more research. Studies so far have not found traces of COVID19 on trains or stations.

Hang on. Are you saying that crowded trains and stations are safe from COVID19? Seriously, why were we all wearing masks when the simple act of getting on a crowded train provides an invincibility shield. You should have told us sooner and we could have dispensed with all this isolation nonsense.

If you put a lot of people in a room - or a train - COVID being often spread by aerosols will spread. There is no credibility in pretending otherwise.

Surveys that have wiped surfaces looking for live virus on trains have not investigated the air, only the surfaces, and it's beyond doubt that this virus is airborne.

I suggest reading the research: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-japan-supercompute-idUSKBN2490PE
Or watching the simulations for yourself: https://www.r-ccs.riken.jp/en/fugaku/research/covid-19/msg-en/
 

NARobertson

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It's abundantly clear that public transport isn't really for you right now. Whilst that may be blunt it's the situation we are in right now, the railway cannot readily bend over backwards to make empty space available for those who can't bear to be near anyone else.
On the contrary I have been on many trains in the last two or three months with no undue reason for concern.
 

Watershed

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Regardless of Covid, it's simply not a nice experience being on a crowded trains. And the OP has a very valid point; XC are offering a significantly reduced service compared to pre-Covid, even though leisure passengers have returned to levels close to, and sometimes even exceeding, pre-Covid levels.

It doesn't reflect very well on the railway, or bode well for the future, if the answer is simply "tough luck".
 

TUC

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I travelled on a GWR train from Worle to Bristol Temple Meads but had to change there for Bristol Parkway. The first possibility was a GWR train going to Gloucester, while the second was a Cross-Country for Aberdeen but with only five coaches.

Covid has not been found in many places but its presence can be inferred from the high numbers of infections and deaths still occurring. Few of these cases can be matched with where or when the original infection took place. Many people on trains do not wear masks. Head to head distances in indoor settings are probably important in transmission. Many scientists consider a distance of 6 ft as being significant and a duration of perhaps in the region of 10 to 15 minutes. Ventilation is probably better at the ends of coaches on trains that frequently stop, thus admitting fresh air through open doors. Few coaches now have opening windows and the effects of air-conditioning, good or bad, are largely unknown.
Sorry, but infections cannot be inferred from rail travel when passengers will have come from multiple environments and will go on to multiple environments, any of which could be the source of the infection. Moreover, it is very important to stress that deaths from Covid are not high, either as a proportion of infections or compared to last year.

Hang on. Are you saying that crowded trains and stations are safe from COVID19? Seriously, why were we all wearing masks when the simple act of getting on a crowded train provides an invincibility shield. You should have told us sooner and we could have dispensed with all this isolation nonsense.

If you put a lot of people in a room - or a train - COVID being often spread by aerosols will spread. There is no credibility in pretending otherwise.

Surveys that have wiped surfaces looking for live virus on trains have not investigated the air, only the surfaces, and it's beyond doubt that this virus is airborne.

I suggest reading the research: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-japan-supercompute-idUSKBN2490PE
Or watching the simulations for yourself: https://www.r-ccs.riken.jp/en/fugaku/research/covid-19/msg-en/
I suggest you read scientific evidence rather than journalistic articles or simulations which will have been based on multiple assumptions about variables.
 

Darandio

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On the contrary I have been on many trains in the last two or three months with no undue reason for concern.

I assume these were lightly loaded in comparison?

I appreciate it's a tricky subject but I also think it's unfair to start referring to trains with emotive language as Covid breeding grounds. You even stated in another thread that you didn't board but then couldn't have subsequently complained if you became infected with Covid. How exactly would you know where it was caught? There's even a possibility that you are carrying it yourself and don't even know about it!
 

NARobertson

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I concur with fishwomp here, believing that having lots of people in a small space with limited ventilation is not risky from a covid transmission viewpoint is wishful thinking. Do you believe that all the anti-covid measures the railways put into effect earlier in the epidemic were unnecessary?
 

fishwomp

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Sorry, but infections cannot be inferred from rail travel when passengers will have come from multiple environments and will go on to multiple environments, any of which could be the source of the infection. Moreover, it is very important to stress that deaths from Covid are not high, either as a proportion of infections or compared to last year.


I suggest you read scientific evidence rather than journalistic articles or simulations which will have been based on multiple assumptions about variables.

Oh dear. Unfortunately for you I am a scientist and my second link was actually the academic research from RIKEN, a Japanese research organization in Kobe, who I have worked with, and who have a rather large supercomputer, and did some of the leading aerosol research, along with COVID protein studies. How about you?
 

NARobertson

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I assume these were lightly loaded in comparison?

I appreciate it's a tricky subject but I also think it's unfair to start referring to trains with emotive language as Covid breeding grounds. You even stated in another thread that you didn't board but then couldn't have subsequently complained if you became infected with Covid. How exactly would you know where it was caught? There's even a possibility that you are carrying it yourself and don't even know about it!
When I said 'could not have complained' I meant that I would have only had myself to blame.

You are correct in saying that I might myself have covid but without symptoms. In that case by not getting on these trains I did exclude the possibility of passing it on to other people, which was public spirited.

Oh dear. Unfortunately for you I am a scientist and my second link was actually the academic research from RIKEN, a Japanese research organization in Kobe, who I have worked with, and who have a rather large supercomputer, and did some of the leading aerosol research, along with COVID protein studies. How about you?
I have a BSc and PhD in theoretical physics. I was dux of my school.

I have now read the two pieces you kindly posted. They both indicate the partial effectiveness of wearing masks (today I had two on), together with the importance of good ventilation, including open windows. It says, for instance, that, if everyone wears masks in indoor settings, then transmission is reduced. The Reutters report says that limiting the number of passengers on trains is also beneficial. As far as I can see they broadly support the thrust of what I was saying.
 
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lammergeier

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Regardless of Covid, it's simply not a nice experience being on a crowded trains. And the OP has a very valid point; XC are offering a significantly reduced service compared to pre-Covid, even though leisure passengers have returned to levels close to, and sometimes even exceeding, pre-Covid levels.

It doesn't reflect very well on the railway, or bode well for the future, if the answer is simply "tough luck".
It's not like the XC have simply decided to slash the service. The DfT is directing service levels so direct your ire there. And with many (most?) diagrams double voyagers to compensate it is viewed by many as better to run less but longer services. Clearly in the longer term extra stock is needed so we can run the old timetable with longer sets.
 

TUC

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Oh dear. Unfortunately for you I am a scientist and my second link was actually the academic research from RIKEN, a Japanese research organization in Kobe, who I have worked with, and who have a rather large supercomputer, and did some of the leading aerosol research, along with COVID protein studies. How about you?
You miss my point. It is that there is a major difference between theoretical models at the start of the pandemic than the evidence from data and patterns observed during the past 18 months.
 

a_c_skinner

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I think you'll need to do a bit more research. Studies so far have not found traces of COVID19 on trains or stations.

These studies were about contagion - touch. This now seems to cause a disappearingly small proportion of infections. Droplet seems less important than we first thought too. Aerosol seems the biggest means of spread by a country mile.
Politicians at the start of the pandemic emphasised cleanliness because we simply couldn't do anything else and it was politically unacceptable to admit we were pretty powerless. All the data suggests strongly that being with large numbers of people in confined spaces is what is important - aerosol.
Everyone is whistling to keep their spirits up, each one asserting their favoured activity is safe based on different sets of pretty thin assertions. "There is no evidence of" is being used as if it were "there is evidence of no..."
 

fishwomp

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You miss my point. It is that there is a major difference between theoretical models at the start of the pandemic than the evidence from data and patterns observed during the past 18 months.

Aren't all models theoretical (unless they're OO-gauge?) Gravity is only a theory, but it's backed up by an awful lot of circumstantial evidence. Try not to put the science down - and in the same sentence tell me to read it!

Specifically to your points:

1. To the theoretical model - COVID19 has not changed its ways of travelling through the air - the research from Japan is still valid. The dispersion of aerosols within a train is still a problem.

2. Yes - we are safer now more of the population is vaccinated.

3. No - it's not safe, there are people who carry it, 40,000 tested positive cases a day, and about 1 in 60 people carrying it currently (ONS survey). Put that another way, in a very crammed carriage, two people have it on average. Do you feel lucky - by the way, it's the bloke stood next to you, coughing - oh, you can't move because it's full??

4. How's your immunity today? Do you know? There are people with compromised immunity just trying to get by, or many with waning immunity. Approx 150-200 dead people a day - many if not most are now vaccinated - and sure, there will be underlying illnesses too for many.

5. True - you cannot know what event exactly caused your catching a virus - you can't know being on the train was the cause, unless you wore a hazmat suit until you boarded the train. It is a probabilistic event, if the probability of transmission is reduced, through not running over-crammed services, you have less chance of catching it..

So.. to the point: let's not try to pretend everything is safe - what we need to do is find out what level of risk we are comfortable with and accept it. A crowded train is out of my comfort zone today - but I'd happily join a less crowded one.
 

seagull

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Who is going to foot the bill for train operating companies / the Government to run twice as many trains (and employ more staff) just so that they can be emptier?

All it will do is prolong the inevitable endemic immunity in any case, so a waste of time. Anyone who is really concerned can always drive the car anyway, during which the chances of death are considerably higher than that of boarding a supposedly germ-laden train.
 

Merseysider

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This was because the two trains I boarded there were full and standing, offering an ideal covid breeding ground.
You’d better not go to the cinema, then. Or the pub or any restaurants, for that matter. In fact, might be better off staying behind the couch. ;)

Covid isn’t going away - we will need to live with it for the foreseeable future.
 

yorkie

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Aren't all models theoretical (unless they're OO-gauge?) Gravity is only a theory, but it's backed up by an awful lot of circumstantial evidence. Try not to put the science down - and in the same sentence tell me to read it!

Specifically to your points:

1. To the theoretical model - COVID19 has not changed its ways of travelling through the air - the research from Japan is still valid. The dispersion of aerosols within a train is still a problem.
Trains are no more a risk than any other similar environment; indeed modern trains with good aircon or older trains with opening windows are not really an issue. The issue perhaps comes with trains that don't have opening windows and don't have decent aircon (e.g. Class 158) but most adults are now vaccinated so it really isn't an issue any more.

2. Yes - we are safer now more of the population is vaccinated.
Much safer; the vaccines are incredibly effective where it really counts, which is avoiding serious illness.

3. No - it's not safe, there are people who carry it, 40,000 tested positive cases a day, and about 1 in 60 people carrying it currently (ONS survey). Put that another way, in a very crammed carriage, two people have it on average. Do you feel lucky - by the way, it's the bloke stood next to you, coughing - oh, you can't move because it's full??
The rates are much higher among unvaccinated people, especially children. A huge proportion of the positive cases are in children (is it more than half? I think so, or thereabouts). There is no need to feel lucky; the only luck we have is that we are living in the age of really good vaccines.


4. How's your immunity today? Do you know? There are people with compromised immunity just trying to get by, or many with waning immunity. Approx 150-200 dead people a day - many if not most are now vaccinated - and sure, there will be underlying illnesses too for many.
About 1600 people die each day actually and one way to increase life expectancy is to use modes of transport other than the car. The number of Covid deaths right now is not actually any higher than 'flu deaths in a bad 'flu year. Were people making a fuss when we had a bad 'flu year? these arguments are no more valid now than then.

Waning immunity has been exaggerated; people tend to focus on antibodies but the memory B & T cell response is robust and very long lasting, offering long term protection against serious illness. The way Coronavirus and Rhinoviruses work is that we need to be re-exposed to them every so often to act as a natural booster. This virus is no different. It's a natural process.

However if someone is immunocompromised, they do have the option of wearing a highly effective FFP3 mask (or not quite as effective, but still very good, FFP2 mask) which means they can be right next to an infectious person who is coughing and be sure of avoiding infection. It's not for the majority of people but it is an option for those who feel they need it.

5. True - you cannot know what event exactly caused your catching a virus - you can't know being on the train was the cause, unless you wore a hazmat suit until you boarded the train. It is a probabilistic event, if the probability of transmission is reduced, through not running over-crammed services, you have less chance of catching it..
I rarely become ill from viruses and I regularly catch over-crammed services. The real solution to avoiding illness is actually to keep yourself physically active, eat well, get a reasonable amount of sleep and look after yourself. Being exposed to virus particles is an entrely natural and unavoidable thing.

So.. to the point: let's not try to pretend everything is safe - what we need to do is find out what level of risk we are comfortable with and accept it. A crowded train is out of my comfort zone today - but I'd happily join a less crowded one.
If people feel a train is too crowded for them, they can choose to get a later train if they wish. I do not think compensation should be offered, but Advance fares should be accepted on the next available service (by the relevant operator) if trains are genuinely really busy.

You’d better not go to the cinema, then. Or the pub or any restaurants, for that matter. In fact, might be better off staying behind the couch. ;)

Covid isn’t going away - we will need to live with it for the foreseeable future.
Agreed. If people really do not trust vaccines and cannot get over their fears, they can either stay at home, or wear an FFP3 mask.

Who is going to foot the bill for train operating companies / the Government to run twice as many trains (and employ more staff) just so that they can be emptier?

All it will do is prolong the inevitable endemic immunity in any case, so a waste of time. Anyone who is really concerned can always drive the car anyway, during which the chances of death are considerably higher than that of boarding a supposedly germ-laden train.
I completely agree, though I will throw in the option of wearing an FFP3 mask to people who do want to use public transport (or simply have no choice over the matter) and who require additional reassurance.

FFP3 masks have been found to be pretty much 100% effective and in a real world study resulted in a 47 fold reduction infection rates, compared to standard masks (which are basically placebos, as they allow aerosols through).

FFP3 masks have a close fit and are specifically designed to filter out aerosols.

If you're worried just wear an FFP3 mask.
Why the song and dance?
Exactly; we are well informed and know this, but the average person does not. That's because the public have been completely mislead over masks.

It is rare that any media outlet will explain to people that FFP3 masks are almost 100% effective and that standard masks do not filter the tiny particles that can result in virus transmission.

The general public is led to believe that masks are masks and are not told that the difference between effective masks and standard masks is absolutely huge.

Those who promote masks tend to want to get other people to wear any old masks, so don't tend to mention that FFP3 masks genuinely protect the wearer. Instead, they tend to promote standard masks and are keen to admit that they offer no protection to the wearer and the benefit is supposedly that they protect others. The implication is that people cannot protect themselves. But this is an entirely false premise.

So, why the status quo? Why aren't the public better informed? The answer is simple: most people have no need for masks, and those that are keen to promote masks want to see everyone wearing masks rather than just those who are immunocompromised. Therefore, mask promoters tend not to mention that FFP3 masks are highly effective.

It's a crazy situation, but that is where we are.
 
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NARobertson

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You’d better not go to the cinema, then. Or the pub or any restaurants, for that matter. In fact, might be better off staying behind the couch. ;)

Covid isn’t going away - we will need to live with it for the foreseeable future.
I've been in five restaurants in the last week. They were all much safer in terms of distances between people than these two trains I came across today.

As you say we are now living with it. But the British are no longer very welcome in many other countries, Belgium or Germany, for instance, and this is because of the higher covid incidence and deaths here. Covid is not closely comparable with flu because the latter is a seasonal infection, not one that is around all the time like covid. They evidently don't fully subscribe to the views about the very high efficiencies of either vaccines or masks being expressed by most posters in this thread.
 

Cdd89

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They were all much safer in terms of distances between people than these two trains I came across today.
I'm willing to bet that there weren't as many people talking on your train as were talking in your restaurants. Vocalization dramatically increases the risk posed by Covid.

It's very possible that they didn't have as good air ventilation / filtration either.

Distance is not the only parameter.
 

yorkie

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I've been in five restaurants in the last week. They were all much safer in terms of distances between people than these two trains I came across today.

As you say we are now living with it.
Most of us are, yes.

But the British are no longer very welcome in many other countries, Belgium or Germany, for instance,
A vaccinated person has no issues visiting Belgium or Germany that I am aware of?

and this is because of the higher covid incidence and deaths here.
The incidence of Covid is mostly due to kids not (yet) being vaccinated here. As for deaths, there is a strong link between health/obesity and the UK is not exactly world beating in that department. But we are far, far better than the USA.

Covid is not closely comparable with flu because the latter is a seasonal infection, not one that is around all the time like covid.
Influenza is around all the time but is often circulating at low levels, this is because of what is known as endemic equilibrium.

Sars-CoV-2 has not yet reached endemic equilibrium but it is coming.

A Sars-CoV-2 infection in an unvaccinated young person or a vaccinated adult is actually less likely to be as severe as an influenza infection in equivalent populations, but we not yet have the same level of immunity against Sars-CoV-2 as we do against other respiratory viruses. But, in time, we will.

In order to get a similarly good level of immunity, we do need full exposure to the virus as well as exposure to the vaccines (or a couple of natural exposures for people who choose not to be vaccinated).

They evidently don't fully subscribe to the views about the very high efficiencies of either vaccines or masks being expressed by most posters in this thread.
Many people don't realise how effective vaccines are, or the different ways effectiveness can be measured. And most people don't have a clue how effective an FFP3 mask is, or how ineffective a standard mask is either.

To be fair most people don't really need to know; for the most part we just need to know that we can get vaccinated and live normal lives without fear. But for some people who are immunocompromised or have been fed a lot of fearful messages, it is useful to know more information. The average person really just wants to forget Covid and live their lives now though.
 

Freightmaster

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...the two trains I boarded there were full and standing, offering an ideal covid breeding ground.
Just like this forum seems to offer an 'ideal breeding ground for paranoia and hyperbole...? ;)


Hang on. Are you saying that crowded trains and stations are safe from COVID19? Seriously, why were we all wearing masks when the simple act of getting on a crowded train provides an invincibility shield.
We're not!! (and 99.9% of the population are certainly not 'double masking', on public transport or elsewhere)


As other posters have already pointed out, if anyone is genuinely scared about travelling on crowded trains or buses,
rather than needlessly double masking, all they have to do is wear a single (correctly fitted) FFP3 mask and they will
be 100% safe from Covid, but as Yorkie says, the very people clamouring for mask mandates refuse to wear appropriate
masks themselves for some bizarre reason!!





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