Worst " Bus war"?

[Mitch in Notts]

One thing that always struck me as odd was the number of operators of the 331 service - a fairly low frequency service with trips run by NCT, Dunns, Trent (and others?). Was that something left over after a bus war?

Living on the 331 route Trent withdrew a number of journeys at deregulation, these passed to numerous operators on tender including (partly), Camms Coaches, Nottingham City Transport, Derby City Transport, East Midland, Dunn-line, Pathfinder etc., there were definitely many more!
During a 'lull' in bus wars Trent 'gave' Camms a run on the 331 to ease competition elsewhere. This left Trent running into/out of Nottingham at 0725(NS), 1005, 1400, 1710(NS out), 1800. Camms ran in/out at 0800(NS), 0830, 1025(NS, in), 1200, 1600, 1855(in) with some adjustments over time. Dunnline ran the 1730 departure while the evening journeys at 2010 & 2240 and the Sunday service had numerous operators.

 

[matchmaker]

Back in the early 1990s two competing operators operated on the Cumbrae Slip - Millport shuttle on the island of Great Cumbrae in the Clyde. Population of the whole island about 1300!

 

[AnnieslandJohn]

After deregulation, Collishaw ran a shabby service from Bishop Auckland to Woodhouse Close, but ceased in early 1987.
I travelled on it and wrote a memo about the standard of driving and the state of the vehicle to the Durham County Council Transport Co-ordination Officer (I worked in the PPT Section in the Planning Department at the time).

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

• At deregulation, some scabby firm (something like Burtenshaws?) ran from Bishop to Woodhouse Close but then went by early 1987.

It was Collishaw 94). Travelled on it and wrote a memo about the standard of driving and state of vehicle to the Durham County Council Transport Co-ordination Officer (worked in PPT Section in the Planning Department the time).

Thanks for that - struggling to recall from 1986! Seem to recall they had some shabby Duple bodied coach?

 

[GaryMcEwan]

The Stagecoach Perth and Strathtay Scottish war was quite bad in the late 80s - early 90s. I believe that Neil Renilson jumped ship in 1989 leaving Strathtay and joining Stagecoach.

Quite ironic that Stagecoach subsequently bought the Traction Group which included Strathtay in 2005.

 

[MarkC]

The Plymouth bus war between First and Citybus (Go Ahead) rumbled on and off for years ending with both operators covering large chunks of the city and beyond, with pretty decent fare offers too At one point I had 37 buses an hour to the city from where I live. It ultimately ended with First selling Plymouth ops to Stagecoach and concentrating on Cornwall. Stagecoach registered a much smaller network in Plymouth area to that First ran. Citybus have now won a large council contract in Cornwall and seem to be heading to renewed rivalries with First down west.

 

[Westcountryman]

No mention yet of a bus war in Bournemouth and Poole in the early 80s. Not only did Bournemouth Transport (possibly called Yellow Buses at the time) try to increase their share by running a cheap subsidiary called White Buses, but there was a system set up by Badgerline and Southern Vectis mainly in competition with Wilts and Dorset; rather ironic as W & D and Southern Vectis ar both major parts of Go South Coast. The buses were all in Badgerline green and yellow. Badgerline ran two corridors, Turlin Moor to Mudeford via Poole, Bournemouth and Christchurch, and Poole to Canford Heath. Buses during the day would be bases close to Poole station, and the crews would use the Littlewoods cafeteria in the nearby Dolphin (Arndale) Centre.

The buses they used were mainly RELLs and, I think 3 VRs. Wilts and Dorset retaliated by bring in quite a few ex Birmingham VRs with MCW bodywork to increase services. The result was that the Poole-Bournemouth-Christchurch corridor was considerably overbussed. The service from Canford Heath during the day went up to ~20 buses an hour. Current service is every 10 minutes. I can't remember how long it lasted but it died a quite rapid death as W & D wouldn't cave in, and rumours were that whoever was financing it pulled the plug.

After it finished, W & D started on their midibus phase using Metroriders. I'm not a fan!

Edit. Here is an article which gives some of the history. It was a little later than I thought.

Badgerline loses bus war | 7th April 1988 | The Commercial Motor Archive

'Badgerline loses bus war' first printed in the 7th April 1988 issue of Commercial Motor

archive.commercialmotor.com

 

[gimmea50anyday]

If badgerline was one of the companies involved then I doubt wilts and dorset and southern vectis would have been go ahead owned at the time as badgerline was one of the founding companies of FirstGroup. Ironic tho how competing bus firms can end up owned by the same company

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

If badgerline was one of the companies involved then I doubt wilts and dorset and southern vectis would have been go ahead owned at the time as badgerline was one of the founding companies of FirstGroup. Ironic tho how competing bus firms can end up owned by the same company

Badgerline and Southern Vectis had both been recently privatised and were looking to expand.

Wilts and Dorset were being privatised in 1987 and I think Badgerline tabled a bid and there were two management bids - one from the MD and one from the wider management team. The latter one won, so Badgerline decided to wade in with a competitive network in Salisbury and, in conjunction with SV, in Poole.

The Poole one was a jointly owned firm called BadgerVectis. Badgerline livery was used as it was seen as more marketable and the fleet was drawn from both fleets with RELLs and some new Ivecos and three ex Manchester Fleetlines IIRC. Wilts and Dorset responded by buying some secondhand VRs and Olympians plus a large batch of MCW Metroriders. After a few months, BV folded their cards!

When BadgerVectis ceased operating (without the required 42 days notice), the TC couldn't take action against the parent firms. The vehicles returned to their parent firms IIRC.

It wasn't until 2003 and 2005 that W&D and SV joined Go Ahead Group so some time after!

 

[MarkC]

No mention yet of a bus war in Bournemouth and Poole in the early 80s. Not only did Bournemouth Transport (possibly called Yellow Buses at the time) try to increase their share by running a cheap subsidiary called White Buses, but there was a system set up by Badgerline and Southern Vectis mainly in competition with Wilts and Dorset; rather ironic as W & D and Southern Vectis ar both major parts of Go South Coast. The buses were all in Badgerline green and yellow. Badgerline ran two corridors, Turlin Moor to Mudeford via Poole, Bournemouth and Christchurch, and Poole to Canford Heath. Buses during the day would be bases close to Poole station, and the crews would use the Littlewoods cafeteria in the nearby Dolphin (Arndale) Centre.

The buses they used were mainly RELLs and, I think 3 VRs. Wilts and Dorset retaliated by bring in quite a few ex Birmingham VRs with MCW bodywork to increase services. The result was that the Poole-Bournemouth-Christchurch corridor was considerably overbussed. The service from Canford Heath during the day went up to ~20 buses an hour. Current service is every 10 minutes. I can't remember how long it lasted but it died a quite rapid death as W & D wouldn't cave in, and rumours were that whoever was financing it pulled the plug.

After it finished, W & D started on their midibus phase using Metroriders. I'm not a fan!

Edit. Here is an article which gives some of the history. It was a little later than I thought.

Badgerline loses bus war | 7th April 1988 | The Commercial Motor Archive

'Badgerline loses bus war' first printed in the 7th April 1988 issue of Commercial Motor

archive.commercialmotor.com

I believe Badgerline had a hand in Western National during the original Plymouth bus war with Ply mouth Citybus (then municipal) in 1988. Lasted 8 months or so until they both retreated to their traditional territory with Western National gaining a few routes off Citybus. First then took over Western National in early 90s, and in the 20 odd years they were here had a few spats with Citybus, notibally between 2008 and 2010, when Citybus sold to Go Ahead and 2013 - 2015, when First sold Plymouth ops to Stagecoach

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I believe Badgerline had a hand in Western National during the original Plymouth bus war with Ply mouth Citybus (then municipal) in 1988. Lasted 8 months or so until they both retreated to their traditional territory with Western National gaining a few routes off Citybus. First then took over Western National in early 90s, and in the 20 odd years they were here had a few spats with Citybus, notibally between 2008 and 2010, when Citybus sold to Go Ahead and 2013 - 2015, when First sold Plymouth ops to Stagecoach

There were indeed two (or three) Plymouth bus wars.

The first was as you say in 1988. There had been a local industrial dispute in Citybus with an all out stoppage and this emboldened Western National to expand their presence on city services; they had historically operated services in the city as part of the joint services agreement IIRC. At that time, Western National were owned by Plympton Coachlines though it was an open secret that Badgerline had a shareholding in the enterprise, and whilst the bus war was ongoing, took a majority shareholding. The Citybus drivers went back to work and after some more competition, peace came about but as you say, WN did probably get the better of the deal in the end.

Then in 2008, Plymouth City Council decided that they would look to sell Citybus. First went in all guns blazing with a landgrab with their Ugobus network featuring nearly new vehicles drafted in from West Yorkshire, Glasgow, Manchester, some older ex Bristol B6s and some ex Hong Kong Darts. Unfortunately for First, the council sold to Go Ahead who had much deeper pockets; that and the fact that First had really gone off half cocked. First lost millions on the escapade, so even when peace came, the losses continued.

By 2012, the position hadn't improved and Tim O'Toole then publicly declared that South Devon was in close down mode. The tables turned, Go Ahead then decided to make a pre-emptive strike to secure a better position in case of a sale with services to Torpoint and Tavistock plus additional services in the city. First battened down the hatches, moving the most expensive vehicles (e400) to Cornwall for the U1/U2, replaced by elderly Tridents. Similarly, the only other "modern" single decks (other than the odd Dart or Solo) were some 2001/2 B6s that were sent to Somerset. They were then swapped for some Somerset B7Ls and a few more ex Bristol B6s (which were very peachy by that time), in readiness for the sale to Stagecoach. As part of that sale and subsequent de-escalation, Citybus retained the Torpoint route (with the First depot closing) and out to Callington so in a reversal of the first one, Citybus probably got the better of things of that war.

 

[MarkC]

There were indeed two (or three) Plymouth bus wars.

The first was as you say in 1988. There had been a local industrial dispute in Citybus with an all out stoppage and this emboldened Western National to expand their presence on city services; they had historically operated services in the city as part of the joint services agreement IIRC. At that time, Western National were owned by Plympton Coachlines though it was an open secret that Badgerline had a shareholding in the enterprise, and whilst the bus war was ongoing, took a majority shareholding. The Citybus drivers went back to work and after some more competition, peace came about but as you say, WN did probably get the better of the deal in the end.

Then in 2008, Plymouth City Council decided that they would look to sell Citybus. First went in all guns blazing with a landgrab with their Ugobus network featuring nearly new vehicles drafted in from West Yorkshire, Glasgow, Manchester, some older ex Bristol B6s and some ex Hong Kong Darts. Unfortunately for First, the council sold to Go Ahead who had much deeper pockets; that and the fact that First had really gone off half cocked. First lost millions on the escapade, so even when peace came, the losses continued.

By 2012, the position hadn't improved and Tim O'Toole then publicly declared that South Devon was in close down mode. The tables turned, Go Ahead then decided to make a pre-emptive strike to secure a better position in case of a sale with services to Torpoint and Tavistock plus additional services in the city. First battened down the hatches, moving the most expensive vehicles (e400) to Cornwall for the U1/U2, replaced by elderly Tridents. Similarly, the only other "modern" single decks (other than the odd Dart or Solo) were some 2001/2 B6s that were sent to Somerset. They were then swapped for some Somerset B7Ls and a few more ex Bristol B6s (which were very peachy by that time), in readiness for the sale to Stagecoach. As part of that sale and subsequent de-escalation, Citybus retained the Torpoint route (with the First depot closing) and out to Callington so in a reversal of the first one, Citybus probably got the better of things of that war.

Yes very true, question is will Stagecoach always continue to be happy with such a small scale Plymouth ops, considering their size in the rest of Devon. They seem to 'compete ' quite well on the main routes into Plymouth city centre, and gained the 9 council rendered routes in 2018 so what next?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Yes very true, question is will Stagecoach always continue to be happy with such a small scale Plymouth ops, considering their size in the rest of Devon. They seem to 'compete ' quite well on the main routes into Plymouth city centre, and gained the 9 council rendered routes in 2018 so what next?

Stagecoach were quite happy to muscle in on North Devon in the old era of First, leading to the original vacation of that area. First were massively complacent and toothless at that time and just aren't like that now (see West Lothian).

However, Stagecoach pick their fights and I see no reason why they would look to go head to head with Go Ahead in Plymouth. People have been commenting on Plymothian Transit for 5 years that Stagecoach might look to go in against Go Ahead; I see no reason why that would happen

 

[carlberry]

However, Stagecoach pick their fights and I see no reason why they would look to go head to head with Go Ahead in Plymouth. People have been commenting on Plymothian Transit for 5 years that Stagecoach might look to go in against Go Ahead; I see no reason why that would happen

The two groups had a quick go in Swindon recently after Go Ahead bought Thamesdown and then agreed to settle down to what they were doing before (However Stagecoach's choice of pre loved Darts as the weapon of choice possibly showed it was only going through the motions of marking it's territory!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The two groups had a quick go in Swindon recently after Go Ahead bought Thamesdown and then agreed to settle down to what they were doing before (However Stagecoach's choice of pre loved Darts as the weapon of choice possibly showed it was only going through the motions of marking it's territory!

I would agree with that assessment. Brief skirmish like two dogs asserting their position, and then going off to play with their owners!

 

[Rich McLean]

Plymouth Citybus 21/A and First Devon & Cornwall 2 a few years back, 12 buses per hour around the Barne Barton Estate carrying fresh air.

 

[MarkC]

Plymouth Citybus 21/A and First Devon & Cornwall 2 a few years back, 12 buses per hour around the Barne Barton Estate carrying fresh air.

Ah those were the days... then First pulled out of Barne Barton and launched extension to their service 3... the 3a... city, Peverell, St Pancras Ave, Honicknowle, West Park, St Budeaux, City circular. This seemed very popular though and seemed to have the better of Citybus 61 on same route. Mind First had done this route before with their 11 service which was always popular and no one including the drivers could understand why it was withdrawn. At the same time they launched the purple route 6 to Efford and Laira, forcing Citybus to cut fares on the 8/9 on same route. This also seemed to do quote well. Citybus launched 12 to Tavistock against First established 83/86 with limited success and the 32 to Torppint which carried mainly fresh air against Firsts much more popular 81 as I believe First got priority on the ferry! First quickly withdrew their long running X80 Plymouth to Paignton service after Stagecoach launched their rival Gold bus on same route using the resources for more routes in Plymouth as above

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Ah those were the days... then First pulled out of Barne Barton and launched extension to their service 3... the 3a... city, Peverell, St Pancras Ave, Honicknowle, West Park, St Budeaux, City circular. This seemed very popular though and seemed to have the better of Citybus 61 on same route. Mind First had done this route before with their 11 service which was always popular and no one including the drivers could understand why it was withdrawn. At the same time they launched the purple route 6 to Efford and Laira, forcing Citybus to cut fares on the 8/9 on same route. This also seemed to do quote well. Citybus launched 12 to Tavistock against First established 83/86 with limited success and the 32 to Torppint which carried mainly fresh air against Firsts much more popular 81 as I believe First got priority on the ferry! First quickly withdrew their long running X80 Plymouth to Paignton service after Stagecoach launched their rival Gold bus on same route using the resources for more routes in Plymouth as above

These First forays can't have done that well as they lost money hand over fist, as was discussed recently.

 

[DunsBus]

Lowland and Northumbria in Berwick. Northumbria had converted their Berwick town services to minibus operation during the spring of 1987 with Lowland doing likewise that summer. Both operators went to MBOs when they were privatised (in 1987 and 1990 respectively) and were acquired by the big groups during 1994, Northumbria to British Bus and Lowland to the GRT group. After Lowland withdrew its Berwick town services in February 1995, the result of a deal between GRT and British Bus which saw the latter offload its Edinburgh area operations to GRT, Northumbria soldiered on alone with its town services. It soon found them to be uneconomic and sold them on to Perryman's in 2002.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Lowland and Northumbria in Berwick. Northumbria had converted their Berwick town services to minibus operation during the spring of 1987 with Lowland doing likewise that summer. Both operators went to MBOs when they were privatised (in 1987 and 1990 respectively) and were acquired by the big groups during 1994, Northumbria to British Bus and Lowland to the GRT group. After Lowland withdrew its Berwick town services in February 1995, the result of a deal between GRT and British Bus which saw the latter offload its Edinburgh area operations to GRT, Northumbria soldiered on alone with its town services. It soon found them to be uneconomic and sold them on to Perryman's in 2002.

I remember the Berwick Beavers (fnarr fnarr ) competing against Northumbria's Sherpas. Going there now, it seems incredible that there was that number of buses when you look at the current town service frequencies. Mind you, the town seems markedly quieter compared to those days.

 

[MarkC]

These First forays can't have done that well as they lost money hand over fist, as was discussed recently.

Actually they did. The loses were less in the last 2 years they were in bus war with Citybus than they were before but unfortunately not at break even point or to a level that stopped them pulling out once an offer for depot was received from Stagecoach.

 

[DunsBus]

I remember the Berwick Beavers (fnarr fnarr ) competing against Northumbria's Sherpas. Going there now, it seems incredible that there was that number of buses when you look at the current town service frequencies. Mind you, the town seems markedly quieter compared to those days.

Likewise. It was entertaining to see Lowland and Northumbria chase each other round town but I wonder how much money was lost between them during the period of head-to-head competition - I very much suspect rather a lot, with any profits made being used to prop up the losses. After Lowland pulled out, Northumbria's Berwick operation never really recovered and when Northumbria exited Berwick in 2002 they citied continuing losses as the reason for doing so. I remember a Northumbria official referring to the Berwick bus wars when the decision was made to leave town and saying that "we may have won the war, but ultimately we have lost the battle".

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Actually they did. The loses were less in the last 2 years they were in bus war with Citybus than they were before but unfortunately not at break even point or to a level that stopped them pulling out once an offer for depot was received from Stagecoach.

Actually they didn't. These are the actual figures from the published accounts. The 2013 figure reflects asset impairment from pulling out of North Devon followed by another set of one-offs in 2015 following the Plymouth disposal.

2010 - (£3.179m)
2011 - (£2.527m)
2012 - (£3.824m)
2013 - (£5.827m)
2014 - (£3.637m)
2015 - (£8.845m)

So if you compare 2012 with 2014, having jettisoned the loss making Barnstaple, the improvement was £190k. Selling seats for a quid to Efford might grab some punters but it isn't going to make money. It was a way of damaging Citybus - that's all.