Worst performing TOC revealed

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Train2Win

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Virgin Trains East Coast is among the worst performing rail companies when it comes to punctuality, a survey has revealed.

According to the Press Association, 2.6 per cent of its trains were between 30 minutes and two hours late, the third worst in the country.

The worst company was the Caledonian Sleeper with 3.7 per cent followed by First Hull Trains with 2.7 per cent.

From July to September last year, 5,250 trains across the country were significantly late, an average of 57 per day.

The figures, taken from Office of Rail and Road data, do not include trains that were more than two hours late.

A spokesman for the Rail Delivery Group, representing train operating companies and Network Rail said they were working hard together to improve train punctuality and information to passengers when things go wrong.

"The rail industry has cut the number of incidents causing delays every year, but a busier network means that incidents can have a greater knock-on effect," he said.
Source : http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/143...among_UK_s_worst_rail_firms_for_punctualilty/

Meanwhile were having to pay more money for tickets and we still get a below par service !
 
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najaB

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Virgin Trains East Coast is among the worst performing rail companies when it comes to punctuality, a survey has revealed.

According to the Press Association, 2.6 per cent of its trains were between 30 minutes and two hours late, the third worst in the country.
Alternatively, you could say that 97.4% of trains were less than 30 minutes late. Suppose it depends on if you want to have a moan or not.
 

SeanG

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If you look, CS and Hull Trains are top, and Grand Central are up there too.

Given that the figures are based on % of trains late then this is no surprise, as these operators operate significantly fewer services than most others.
For example 1 of Hull Trains' services is a much greater percentage of the overall total than 1 of Northern's services
 

TheEdge

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Let me cut and paste a Facebook post I made about this a few days ago...

This is why railways don't stand a chance. "More than 5,000 trains were delayed by 30 minutes to two hours between July and September, the Office of Rail and Road (ORR) data showed.". Presented as awful. Until you stop and think for a few seconds. 5000 trains in three months. Can we get some context on that then, 91 days, NR reckon 22,500 trains run a day on average so that's 2,047,500 trains. Now I know not all of those are passenger but the majority will be. But I guess a headline of "5000 out of 2 million trains are late" is less impressive. Meanwhile I've thought about this for far longer and far deeper than any journalist will.

And I stand by that.
 

najaB

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It's still not all that good when you look at the number of trains involved. 30+ minutes is a reasonably serious delay.
I agree that it's not ideal, but it isn't nearly as bad as the spin that's put on it. How often has GR cancelled or delayed trains due to things within their control, as compared to infrastructure problems or weather events?
 

Bletchleyite

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I agree that it's not ideal, but it isn't nearly as bad as the spin that's put on it. How often has GR cancelled or delayed trains due to things within their control, as compared to infrastructure problems or weather events?

GR's contractor (Network Rail) is not my concern. They are the ones with whom I have a contract. Only when the delay/cancellation is entirely outwith the industry's control (i.e. serious weather, passenger action where the TOC could not have reasonably managed the situation) is excusable in that sense.

Similarly, I don't care whether Tesco having no milk is their fault or the farmer's fault. It is Tesco's issue to solve.
 

ainsworth74

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Let me cut and paste a Facebook post I made about this a few days ago...



And I stand by that.

When I first saw this that was my thought as well. I'm sure we could do better but this is hardly terrible state of affairs as it stands...
 

Tetchytyke

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Alternatively, you could say that 97.4% of trains were less than 30 minutes late.

Given that 30 minutes is a significant delay, and given how many trains VTEC run, that sounds even worse tbh.

It does, however, sum up what anecdotally I've been noticing this year: that prices are shooting up and quality is shooting down, and the only thing that's changed is Brian Souter.
 

al78

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What matters from an individual passengers perspective, is not the national statistics, but how frequently they personally have to endure delays. The national averages do not illustrate localised variations.

Less than 3% of trains delayed at least half an hour doesn't sound too bad. If you are using the train twice a day, every working day for a year you will, on average, experience around 6-7 half hour plus delays per year, or once every two months. If instead of taking the train you were to drive on the M1 or M6 during the peak hours how many half hour plus delays due to congestion, accidents, bad weather would you experience in a year typically?
 

najaB

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GR's contractor (Network Rail) is not my concern.
Network Rail aren't GR's contractor.
Given that 30 minutes is a significant delay, and given how many trains VTEC run, that sounds even worse tbh.
The large number of services means that one bad day affects dozens of services.
It does, however, sum up what anecdotally I've been noticing this year: that prices are shooting up and quality is shooting down, and the only thing that's changed is Brian Souter.
The ECML had several meltdowns over the period in question. What would be more useful would be to see what percentage of delays were due to infrastructure/congestion vs matters within GR's control.
 

Bletchleyite

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Network Rail aren't GR's contractor.

To all intents and purposes they are. GR don't get a choice of whether to use them or not, but they do of course get a choice as to whether to enter the business in the first place, and as to how they manage their relationship with them.
 

najaB

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It does, however, sum up what anecdotally I've been noticing this year: that prices are shooting up and quality is shooting down, and the only thing that's changed is Brian Souter.
If you look at the actual data, the Quarter 3 CaSL MAA is 0.1% worse for 15/16 that it was for 14/15 - a decline, yes, but hardly shooting down. The Q3 PPM MAA figures were unchanged.

So GR's figures aren't good, but they aren't really getting significantly worse.
 
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tbtc

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Given that VTEC run services from London to Aberdeen/ Inverness (and their shortest regular off-peak service is the Newark service which must be over a hundred miles long – i.e. ignoring placing journeys like the one-a-day Hull – Doncaster service), it's not that surprising that they have more services “over half an hour late” than Merseyrail or London Midland or South West Trains (etc).

Cross Country have the “luxury” of waiting a good five/ten minutes at some intermediate stations, which helps. FGW/GWR run a lot of short distance services (e.g. Thames Valley, Devon, Cornwall) which means that one late Penzance – Paddington service is a drop in the ocean compared to the overall number of services the TOC operates).

If “late by at least half an hour” is your metric then of course VTEC will look like they are on the naughty step (though the Caledonian Sleepers will generally look worse).

Were people criticising Virgin for claiming that VTEC were the "best" company a week or two ago (the supposed “slight of hand” by not counting Open Access) now criticising VTEC for being “bad (by not counting the poorly performing Open Access or the inconvenient truth of the Caledonian Sleeper)? Can’t have it both ways – I don’t mind, as long as we can agree on whether it’s fair to put Open Access in these comparisons or not.

Worst performing TOC revealed

Virgin Trains East Coast is among the worst performing rail companies when it comes to punctuality, a survey has revealed

So, despite the headline, VTEC weren't the worst performing?

If you look, CS and Hull Trains are top, and Grand Central are up there too

The ECML had several meltdowns over the period in question

i.e. any company operating on the creaking ECML would have struggled?

I’m sure someone will find a way of blaming Mr B Souter for this, but... not sure how.

What would be more useful would be to see what percentage of delays were due to infrastructure/congestion vs matters within GR's control.

Agreed.

Brian Souter

I'm shocked and surprised to see you mention him again

When I first saw this that was my thought as well. I'm sure we could do better but this is hardly terrible state of affairs as it stands...

Agreed. A bit of perspective always helps.

It's still not all that good when you look at the number of trains involved. 30+ minutes is a reasonably serious delay.

30+ minutes is serious, but it’s fairly obvious that it’s going to happen more on a TOC that operate services that are hundreds of miles long.

Rather than the hysterical headlines, we should compare the number 30+ late with the number 30+ late in previous years. Otherwise it’s fairly meaningless.

Alternatively, you could say that 97.4% of trains were less than 30 minutes late. Suppose it depends on if you want to have a moan or not.

True.

(though I think I know which category most people are in, sadly!)
 

najaB

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Rather than the hysterical headlines, we should compare the number 30+ late with the number 30+ late in previous years. Otherwise it’s fairly meaningless.
As noted above the seriously late and cancelled figure was 0.1% worse in Q3 15/16 than 14/15.
 

TRAX

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Shall we start counting the delays caused to car users due to accidents and congestion so we can have a laugh or don't we already know the results ? ;)
 

Tetchytyke

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So GR's figures aren't good, but they aren't really getting significantly worse.

The dataset on the ORR website (http://orr.gov.uk/statistics/published-stats/additional-datasets) only goes to Q2 2015-16, unless I'm missing something.

Q1 2014-15 shows 324 CaSL (cancelled and significantly delayed), compared to 423 Q1 2015-16; an increase of about 30%.
Q2 2014-15 shows 504 CaSL, compared to 725 Q2 2015-16, again an increase of about 30%.

As the only thing that has changed is Brian Souter, of course mentioning him is relevant.
 

Bletchleyite

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Shall we start counting the delays caused to car users due to accidents and congestion so we can have a laugh or don't we already know the results ? ;)

One reason to choose rail over road or air is that the relatively controlled operating conditions should (and largely do) offer a very predictable arrival time.
 

Tetchytyke

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Thank you.

That shows VTEC's PPM is 2.2% worse than the same quarter last year, and CaSL is 1.2% worse than the same quarter last year. VTEC's CaSL is also 0.2 percentage points worse than Hull Trains and 1 percentage point worse than Grand Central, who use the same infrastructure.

It also shows that 7.2% of VTEC trains were cancelled or significantly delayed during the period, compared to an industry average of 3.0% overall or 4.3% for long-distance operators.

Pretty grim reading really.
 
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DarloRich

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Virgin Trains East Coast is among the worst performing rail companies when it comes to punctuality, a survey has revealed.

According to the Press Association, 2.6 per cent of its trains were between 30 minutes and two hours late, the third worst in the country.

The worst company was the Caledonian Sleeper with 3.7 per cent followed by First Hull Trains with 2.7 per cent.

From July to September last year, 5,250 trains across the country were significantly late, an average of 57 per day.

The figures, taken from Office of Rail and Road data, do not include trains that were more than two hours late.

A spokesman for the Rail Delivery Group, representing train operating companies and Network Rail said they were working hard together to improve train punctuality and information to passengers when things go wrong.

"The rail industry has cut the number of incidents causing delays every year, but a busier network means that incidents can have a greater knock-on effect," he said.

Source : http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/143...among_UK_s_worst_rail_firms_for_punctualilty/



Meanwhile were having to pay more money for tickets and we still get a below par service !

you can twist the figures however you like. The Edge has presented a sensible counter argument using the same figures.

GR's contractor (Network Rail) is not my concern. They are the ones with whom I have a contract. Only when the delay/cancellation is entirely outwith the industry's control (i.e. serious weather, passenger action where the TOC could not have reasonably managed the situation) is excusable in that sense.

Similarly, I don't care whether Tesco having no milk is their fault or the farmer's fault. It is Tesco's issue to solve.

But that is far to simplistic and you must know that. The relationships within the railway industry are multi, multifaceted and complex. It isn't a simple master and commander contractual relationship
 

westv

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Shall we start counting the delays caused to car users due to accidents and congestion so we can have a laugh or don't we already know the results ? ;)

But with a car you don't have to allow extra time to get to the vehicle in order not to miss it and because the car is several miles away. :D:lol:
 

Bletchleyite

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But that is far to simplistic and you must know that. The relationships within the railway industry are multi, multifaceted and complex. It isn't a simple master and commander contractual relationship

As someone who knows about the industry I don't disagree, but to the end customer it is simply not their concern. They are simply selecting suppliers - they can select rail, they can select coach, they can select air or they can select car. If one supplier is inadequate, it is not their problem why it is inadequate.

The railway industry really needs to start thinking like that.

In the end, if, say, BA flies from Heathrow, and BA flights are often delayed because of Heathrow operations, I will select an airline who do not use Heathrow. It doesn't matter that they have little choice to me as a customer, as I do have a choice of another mode of transport.
 
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TRAX

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But with a car you don't have to allow extra time to get to the vehicle in order not to miss it and because the car is several miles away. :D:lol:

In which case you should drive your car to the station to get to the train ! :D
 

The Ham

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But with a car you don't have to allow extra time to get to the vehicle in order not to miss it and because the car is several miles away. :D:lol:

On a normal day (peak hour) to drive door to door or walk, train, change trains, walk to commute to work is broadly the same.

Yes there will be days when driving is quicker (i.e. school holidays) but then these are then offset by the times when traffic is a nightmare and delays are very bad.

Conversely if I go by train my journey times are fairly fixed and although sometimes I am delayed it is rare.

Given that most train services that I use are run over a 15 hour period on a frequency of 2tph that means that over the course of a working weak there are 150 services on each half of my commute which means that the chances of me (where I use 10 services) being on one of the 2.5% (4 services out of 150) which are significantly late is going to be very rare.

However, given that when things go wrong they tend to go fairly wrong that then means that most of those significantly delayed services are all at broadly the same time on the same day. As such it is likely that it would be 16 services out of 600 services (all on one day), even then it is likely that I may only need to use one of those 16, however even then I may well find that I use an "earlier" service which is running late and it has little impact on my journey.

Therefore the risk of being delayed on a train is likely to be a once a month risk, however even then the risk of actually being late is still low. As such over the last 2 years I have only been late into the office once and being later than my normal range of arrival home times about twice.
 

ComUtoR

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Given that most train services that I use are run over a 15 hour period on a frequency of 2tph that means that over the course of a working weak there are 150 services on each half of my commute which means that the chances of me (where I use 10 services) being on one of the 2.5% (4 services out of 150) which are significantly late is going to be very rare.

The problem with delayed trains is that it is the same services that are suffering. I would love to see the statistics broken down to when the delays happen.

I rarely get delayed off-peak and service recovery is quicker where you have less trains to reorganise. We have trains that never seem to hit PPM

There are some posters whose day is delayed every single day, if they are to be believed. If your train was part of that small percentage you would rightfully be peeved.
 
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