Worth contending PF when station is in upheaval?

[Pumperkin]

Hi,

I got a PF this morning (£20) for not having a ticket between Kidderminster [KID] and Worcester Shrub Hill [WOS] on West Midlands Trains (WMT/WMR).

Kidderminster station is currently going through a massive refurb and as such navigating your way around the station is difficult (temporary ticket office on "up" platform, however train departs from "down" platform and no ticket machine on that side either). Due to issues getting into station (massive queue of cars and unsure exactly where I should be walking so as not to get run over) I did not have time to buy ticket.

Ordinarily I will buy a ticket before travelling, however on the rare occasion I end up on the train I will buy from the guard no problem.

This morning, however, a PF inspector chap was on the train and duly doled out the £20 fine. I was compliant with details and showed my wallet with past tickets in and provided DL with correct details.

As far as I can make out, the PF has been issued correctly and there is a PF scheme on the line, however I have only once ever seen a PF guard in 5+ years of using the train and the normal guard has sold the ticket.

Do I have any grounds for appeal or should I just pay up and move on (I will be buying a weekly ticket this evening as I know I will be on the train for at least 3 days, making it "worth" it.)

Thanks in advance

 

[Hadders]

Others will advise on any technicalities that might exist but for sake of £20 I’d forget it and chalk it up to experience.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Others will advise on any technicalities that might exist but for sake of £20 I’d forget it and chalk it up to experience.

I would agree. It sounds as though you would be relying on their goodwill to offer any reimbursement, which would appear unlikely. Frustrating but probably one to move on from.

 

[ainsworth74]

Others will advise on any technicalities that might exist but for sake of £20 I’d forget it and chalk it up to experience.

You could always pay the £20 to dispose of the matter and then pursue a complaint via customer services. Take tone along the lines of "I don't dispute that I was liable for a PF so have paid it but it feels unfair due to [reasons given in opening post]."

 

[bb21]

If "massive queue of cars" then they can't be going very fast, so that sounds like very much an excuse rather than mitigating circumstances to me.

 

[furlong]

Always worth an appeal (or 3) if you feel you've been wronged. Are there fewer facilities to buy a ticket than normal at the station? Is there clear signage directing you to the ticketing facilities? How long would the wait have been for the next train? If you've bought on board before, were you always warned that you could have been subject to a penalty as is supposed to happen precisely so you can't claim this is condoned and undermine their ability to punish you? And check the signage meets the requirements - often it doesn't.

 

[Pumperkin]

If "massive queue of cars" then they can't be going very fast, so that sounds like very much an excuse rather than mitigating circumstances to me.

Sorry wasn't clear - queue of cars on main road to get into station (but travelling fast in opposite direction). No queue in station and cars driving round assorted bollards in conflict with pedestrians trying to get to trains.

 

[Pumperkin]

Always worth an appeal (or 3) if you feel you've been wronged. Are there fewer facilities to buy a ticket than normal at the station? Is there clear signage directing you to the ticketing facilities? How long would the wait have been for the next train? If you've bought on board before, were you always warned that you could have been subject to a penalty as is supposed to happen precisely so you can't claim this is condoned and undermine their ability to punish you? And check the signage meets the requirements - often it doesn't.

Same facilities as normal, but harder to get to (you have to walk around to ticket office, then double back over bridge). Unsure if machine accessible but do they sell 7 day tickets? 1 machine and many many passengers is never going to work.

Wait for next train would make me late for work so not really a viable option (around half an hour IIRC - never caught it as I can't).

Never been warned on train.

Not sure about signage - may be obscured though. Will check tonight.

Incidentally, WOS are unable to sell tickets today so I have taken photos of a closed office and out of order machine in case they fancy coming again.

 

[bb21]

I don't quite get it. Are you saying there is no safe access route/suitable pedestrian crossing on the main road? I am just trying to picture the Kidderminster station I remember and struggling to think how a refurb project is preventing safe access, even when traffic is busy.

If somehow a safe access route does not exist for pedestrians when traffic is busy, you will probably need to raise this issue with the operator of the station, and possibly the local authority. That isn't really acceptable.

 

[Haywain]

Kidderminster station has access to the Worcester-bound platform from both the road bridge and a footbridge between the platforms (or had the last time I was there), so I don't understand why it would be so difficult to get to the ticket selling facilities.

 

[RPI]

Sounds like the PF was correctly issued but you've nothing to lose by appealing.

 

[Pumperkin]

⁰

Kidderminster station has access to the Worcester-bound platform from both the road bridge and a footbridge between the platforms (or had the last time I was there), so I don't understand why it would be so difficult to get to the ticket selling facilities.

The whole station is being refurbed on the up side which prevents easy access as there are large metal barriers preventing normal movement around the station. Basically you have to go right into the station to get to the ticket office, then all the way to the other end of the platform to then walk halfway down the platform to get thr footbridge over.

If you want to go over the road bridge, you'd have to walk all the way back to where the SVR is and out onto the main road. The pathway to cut to the bridge has been closed.

The sooner the works are done the better.

I'll try and take pics in the daylight tomorrow so you can see what a building site it is.

 

[Sprinter107]

Kidderminster station is currently a bit of a mess, but the signage is more than adequate. The booking office on the down platform (towards Birmingham) has been demolished and rebuilt, and it is a little bit of a detour, but not really that much further to get from the temporary ticket office to the footbridge at the Worcester end of the down platform, thsn it was before.

 

[Llanigraham]

I don't quite get it. Are you saying there is no safe access route/suitable pedestrian crossing on the main road? I am just trying to picture the Kidderminster station I remember and struggling to think how a refurb project is preventing safe access, even when traffic is busy.

If somehow a safe access route does not exist for pedestrians when traffic is busy, you will probably need to raise this issue with the operator of the station, and possibly the local authority. That isn't really acceptable.

There is a Pelican Crossing on Comberton Hill, just outside the station.

 

[Pumperkin]

Thanks all for your advice. I decided just to pay the £20 and chalk it up to experience. I realised that what I said to the penalty fares guy could be construed as incoherent - although all was truthful, to an unaffected party could well be seen as babbling - (never had anything like this before apart from an incident in 2009 with accidentally using an expired railcard) so wouldn't want anything used against me should this escalate. I'm back in the car now as the train costs about the same for half the convenience. Oh well!

 

[gray1404]

Even though you have now paid the £30, you still have the right to appeal (upto 3 times) and in the event you win they will refund the £20 already paid. I would personally put an appeal in. That would need to be done within 21 days following the date the notice was issued.

 

[Pumperkin]

Even though you have now paid the £30, you still have the right to appeal (upto 3 times) and in the event you win they will refund the £20 already paid. I would personally put an appeal in. That would need to be done within 21 days following the date the notice was issued.

I have just had a look on www.penaltyservices.co.uk - it requires you to enter where the ticket was given (at which station) however this was on train between Hartlebury and Droitwich Spa... any idea how to get past this?

 

[gray1404]

Any one know what to input for this one? Can you type On Train...

 

[Pumperkin]

Hi. Just an update on this one. PF was dated 04/03/2020 and I paid it 06/03/2020. They hadn't loaded the PF onto their system so I had to put the details in manually and received confirmation payment received. Checked about a week later and still not on system. I have just logged into it now and it's saying "I'm afraid we cannot accept payment for this notice due to the current status of the case". With this being in red it's a little alarming.

Please can anyone confirm whether this is normal for Ircas? I'm not too worried as I have confirmation the payment was received but could do without dealing with an erroneous court case and correspondence atm!

I didn't bother appealing in the end as I could see they just won't accept my rationale or excuses.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi. Just an update on this one. PF was dated 04/03/2020 and I paid it 06/03/2020. They hadn't loaded the PF onto their system so I had to put the details in manually and received confirmation payment received. Checked about a week later and still not on system. I have just logged into it now and it's saying "I'm afraid we cannot accept payment for this notice due to the current status of the case". With this being in red it's a little alarming.

Please can anyone confirm whether this is normal for Ircas? I'm not too worried as I have confirmation the payment was received but could do without dealing with an erroneous court case and correspondence atm!

I didn't bother appealing in the end as I could see they just won't accept my rationale or excuses.

I don't know but certainly one to watch - hopefully others will know. Obv keep every bit of proof / screen grabs etc that you can inc showing their systems as you describe, in case needed

 

[Haywain]

Hi. Just an update on this one. PF was dated 04/03/2020 and I paid it 06/03/2020. They hadn't loaded the PF onto their system so I had to put the details in manually and received confirmation payment received. Checked about a week later and still not on system. I have just logged into it now and it's saying "I'm afraid we cannot accept payment for this notice due to the current status of the case". With this being in red it's a little alarming.

Please can anyone confirm whether this is normal for Ircas? I'm not too worried as I have confirmation the payment was received but could do without dealing with an erroneous court case and correspondence atm!

I didn't bother appealing in the end as I could see they just won't accept my rationale or excuses.

I find it rather reassuring that they can't/won't take the payment twice.

 

[Pumperkin]

I find it rather reassuring that they can't/won't take the payment twice.

I wasn't trying to pay again though. Just trying to log into it to see if it's been marked as paid on their little system. Would be nice if they bothered a) uploading the ticket straightaway so it can be seen and b) had a thing to show it's been paid.

 

[Haywain]

I wasn't trying to pay again though. Just trying to log into it to see if it's been marked as paid on their little system. Would be nice if they bothered a) uploading the ticket straightaway so it can be seen and b) had a thing to show it's been paid.

I know that you were not trying to pay but it would still be disturbing if the system allowed a duplicate payment.