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Would free public transport work in the UK?

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adrock1976

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Having stumbled upon the below article from the Yahoo website (see https://uk.news.yahoo.com/germany-eyes-free-transport-banish-air-pollution-190415292.html )

"Car nation" Germany has surprised neighbours with a radical proposal to reduce road traffic by making public transport free, as Berlin scrambles to meet EU air pollution targets and avoid big fines.

The move comes just over two years after Volkswagen's devastating "dieselgate" emissions cheating scandal unleashed a wave of anger at the auto industry, a keystone of German prosperity.

"We are considering public transport free of charge in order to reduce the number of private cars," three ministers including Environment Minister Barbara Hendricks wrote to EU Environment Commissioner Karmenu Vella in the letter seen by AFP Tuesday.

"Effectively fighting air pollution without any further unnecessary delays is of the highest priority for Germany," the ministers added.

The proposal will be tested by "the end of this year at the latest" in five cities across western Germany, including former capital Bonn and industrial cities Essen and Mannheim.

The move is a radical one for the normally staid world of German politics -- especially as Chancellor Angela Merkel is presently only governing in a caretaker capacity, as Berlin waits for the centre-left Social Democratic Party (SPD) to confirm a hard-fought coalition deal.

On top of ticketless travel, other steps proposed Tuesday include further restrictions on emissions from vehicle fleets like buses and taxis, low-emissions zones or support for car-sharing schemes.

- Air pressure -

Action is needed soon, as Germany and eight fellow EU members including Spain, France and Italy sailed past a January 30 deadline to meet EU limits on nitrogen dioxide and fine particles.

Brussels environment chief Vella gave countries extra time to present further pollution-busting measures or face legal action.

"Life-threatening" pollution affects more than 130 cities in Europe, according to the Commission, causing some 400,000 deaths and costing 20 billion euros ($24.7 billion) in health spending per year in the bloc.

Countries that fail to keep to EU limits could face legal action at the European Court of Justice, the EU's highest tribunal, which can levy fines on member states.

Even without the pressure from Brussels, air quality has surged to the top of Berlin's priorities over the past year.

Suspicions over manipulated emissions data have spread to other car manufacturers since Volkswagen's 2015 admission to cheating regulatory tests on 11 million vehicles worldwide.

Environmentalists brought court cases aimed at banning diesels from parts of some city centres, and fears millions of drivers could be affected spurred Chancellor Angela Merkel into action.

Titans like BMW, Mercedes-Benz parent Daimler or the world's biggest carmaker Volkswagen agreed to pay some 250 million euros into a billion-euro fund to upgrade local transport.

The government "should make sure that the car manufacturers finance the emergency measure" of free transport, Greenpeace urged, adding that more parking and road tolls in cities could help reduce urban traffic.

On their own account, the auto firms have stepped up plans to electrify their ranges, with a barrage of battery-powered or hybrid models planned for the coming decade.

- Feet of clay -

Public transport is highly popular in Germany, with the number of journeys increasing regularly over the past 20 years to reach 10.3 billion in 2017.

In comparison with other major European nations, tickets can be cheap: a single ticket in Berlin costs 2.90 euros, while the equivalent on the London Underground costs 4.90 pounds (5.50 euros or $6.80).

But cities were quick to warn that more planning was needed if free travel was to succeed.

"I don't know any manufacturer who would be able to deliver the number of electric buses we would need" to meet increased demand if transport was free, Bonn mayor Ashok Sridharan told news agency DPA.

Meanwhile, Association of German Cities chief Helmut Dedy warned that "we expect a clear statement about how (free transport) will be financed" from the federal government.

Other attempts around the world to offer citizens free travel have failed, including in US city Seattle.

Ministers "should think again during a ride on the U6 (underground line) in Berlin at 7.30 am," Die Welt newspaper commented.

"The conclusion would be clear: more carriages, more personnel, and maybe even more tracks and lines would be needed. Where would the billions for that come from?"

This has got me thinking about a couple of questions as to how it may (or may not) work in the UK.

Could large corporations put something towards the cost?

Would this be suitable for PTE areas (and also the Valley Lines network around Cardiff) to experiment with first?

Could this become permanent, or could it be trialled out for when schools are off?

Another thought that comes into mind here is that there could be a possibility of Phillip Green (former British Home Stores) could easily slip a few cheques as he hides his ill gotten gains from HMRC so as to dodge paying tax, and David Murray who was the former owner of the original Glasgow Rangers FC (that were in existence from 1872 to 2012) and promptly offloaded it when HMRC had caught him operating a tax dodging scam. Both of those individuals could slip something towards the cost of providing free public transport as some reparation for their misdeeds.
 
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AlterEgo

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I went and read all of that, and you spoiled it yet again with a pathetic and needless mention of Glasgow Rangers. Obsessed.
 

theking

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No way.

The system can barely cope at the moment let alone a free for all.
 

Tetchytyke

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Apologies that I can't copy the article as I'm on my phone, but Tallinn has had free public transport for several years:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....periment-estonia-public-transport-free-cities

To partake, you have to be a resident of the city and pay tax accordingly. Which is less good for the town's just outside Tallinn.

There's no reason why it couldn't work on a local level, either at city or PTE level. Free public transport isn't such an unknown quantity; we've been giving the OAPs free transport for ten years. And, let's face it, on plenty of bus services across the country the only passengers on the bus are on freebies. But it would have to be funded properly, unlike the disaster zone that is ENCTS, which will always be the stumbling block.
 

cuccir

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Although the article says that thyt have 'failed' there are a few cities in the States which have free transit zones: Pittsburgh, Salt Lake City; those in Portland, Oregon and Seattle ended recently (and I'm not sure they 'failed', but the revenue was needed to fill city budgets). I think Calgary has one too.
 

Y Ddraig Coch

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agreed with @theking rail network on this over inhabited little island we live on is in enough of a mess, free transport just would never ever work.
 

Harbornite

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Possibly. After all, it seems to be working on the Birmingham cross-city route...
 

sheff1

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Sheffield was moving towards free transport in the early 80's as part of The People's Republic of South Yorkshire plans. Thatcher, though, put a stop to it so we never found out if it would work.
 

Welshman

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The Welsh Assembly has been offering free travel at weekends on its TrawsCymru network since last summer.
I haven't heard how successful that has been.
 

pemma

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Worth considering would free public transport make us more lazy? If there was a free frequent bus that would take you 1 mile down the road would you be less likely to walk instead of the bus costing £2 to take you 1 mile down the road?
 

Dentonian

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Question is too general, but short answer is No because it would be made NOT to work.

1. Current legislation wouldn't allow it?

2. UK politics means the "people" won't allow a change in legislation, nor will they accept the idea of the rich subsidising the poor. This is 2018, not 1978.

Also, bearing in mind comments in the German original about diesel, is the question:

Would free public transport work in the UK? or is it

Would free public *rail* transport work in the UK? In which case, I confess my point 2 would be diluted.
 

Dentonian

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Worth considering would free public transport make us more lazy? If there was a free frequent bus that would take you 1 mile down the road would you be less likely to walk instead of the bus costing £2 to take you 1 mile down the road?

I walked exactly a mile one typical Mancunian Summer's day last June (humid, clammy, cloudy) and walked back. I was laid up for two days with heat exhaustion. So, not walking a mile is not always "lazy". FTR, My bus service is "frequent", though the 0.6 mile section of the journey it covered would have cost £1.70 (now £2), and as I recall, none passed me in either direction, though I did just miss one starting my return journey. So please, less of the Darwinist generalisations, and just be thankful for your rude health. It doesn't last forever.
 

pemma

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nor will they accept the idea of the rich subsidising the poor. This is 2018, not 1978.

Plenty of rich pensioners use ENCTS passes, particularly in PTE areas where they get the extended benefit of free train travel and tram travel in Greater Manchester and the West Midlands.
 

pemma

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I walked exactly a mile one typical Mancunian Summer's day last June (humid, clammy, cloudy) and walked back. I was laid up for two days with heat exhaustion. So, not walking a mile is not always "lazy". FTR, My bus service is "frequent", though the 0.6 mile section of the journey it covered would have cost £1.70 (now £2), and as I recall, none passed me in either direction, though I did just miss one starting my return journey. So please, less of the Darwinist generalisations, and just be thankful for your rude health. It doesn't last forever.

I did ask if people would be less likely to walk 1 mile, which presumes you are able to walk 1 mile, meaning it's a question you should ignore if you can't.
 

Dentonian

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Plenty of rich pensioners use ENCTS passes, particularly in PTE areas where they get the extended benefit of free train travel and tram travel in Greater Manchester and the West Midlands.

I didn't say anything about rejecting the idea of the poor subsidising the rich. And the vast majority of Pensioners in GM (not sure about WM) don't benefit from free train and Metrolink travel because they don't live anywhere near a train station or Metrolink stop!
Besides, the question is about ALL residents, with an inference that it mainly concerns commuters/peak hour drivers
 

radamfi

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Hassett in Belgium had long been the poster boy for free travel in Europe, claiming that introducing free travel saved them the cost of building a new ring road. However, free travel ended a few years ago after it was deemed unaffordable.
 

thejuggler

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I grew up in Sheffield. Whilst it may have been seen as a social ideology bus services were excellent and so cheap everyone used them

Dad used to get buses at 5am to go 6 miles to work and go with his colleagues. The first bus from his village is now 7am, so no chance of being at work for 6.

However it was a time when cars were expensive and ownership much lower. People are now far too wedded to their own personal vehicle that the cost of public transport is probably not the main reason many people don’t use it.
 

Dentonian

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I did ask if people would be less likely to walk 1 mile, which presumes you are able to walk 1 mile, meaning it's a question you should ignore if you can't.

Difficult to say. All I can say is that before I became ill, I don't think I ever used a bus for a journey of less than a mile, unless it was uphill and raining, and even then there is no point in standing in the rain if there is no shelter. The latter in particular, probably makes your question too difficult to answer, but TBH, your question is one that should be asked once the basic parameters are answered first (which forms of transport; would it be nationwide or just specific regions; who would pay for it; how big a legislative hurdle would it be) etc. Then start considering minor practical problems.
Besides, if you are fit enough to walk a mile then the bus service would have to be very frequent or punctual to make it worth while waiting, rather than walking even when free.
 

pemma

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I didn't say anything about rejecting the idea of the poor subsidising the rich. And the vast majority of Pensioners in GM (not sure about WM) don't benefit from free train and Metrolink travel because they don't live anywhere near a train station or Metrolink stop!
Besides, the question is about ALL residents, with an inference that it mainly concerns commuters/peak hour drivers

I'm sure a lot of pensioners are capable of catching a bus and then an onward tram or train, even if there isn't a tram or train stop near their house.

Regarding commuters if you had to pay to park at the station (or Metrolink stop), while the bus to the station becomes free will it attract those who 'park & ride' to leave the car at home?
 

HowardGWR

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Hassett in Belgium had long been the poster boy for free travel in Europe, claiming that introducing free travel saved them the cost of building a new ring road. However, free travel ended a few years ago after it was deemed unaffordable.
Hasselt, in case someone is wondering where 'Hassett' is. It's in Belgian Limburg.
 

HowardGWR

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I grew up in Sheffield. Whilst it may have been seen as a social ideology bus services were excellent and so cheap everyone used them

Dad used to get buses at 5am to go 6 miles to work and go with his colleagues. The first bus from his village is now 7am, so no chance of being at work for 6.

However it was a time when cars were expensive and ownership much lower. People are now far too wedded to their own personal vehicle that the cost of public transport is probably not the main reason many people don’t use it.
The key is car parking and possibly road charging. Central London works, even if you pay for your fare, because there is no affordable or feasible way of accessing work by car.
 

NSEFAN

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Although the article says that thyt have 'failed' there are a few cities in the States which have free transit zones: Pittsburgh, Salt Lake City; those in Portland, Oregon and Seattle ended recently (and I'm not sure they 'failed', but the revenue was needed to fill city budgets). I think Calgary has one too.
The tram in Salt Lake is free on the section between the Amtrak Station and the city center, the rest is fare'd. As an aside, it was quite depressing to see, the sheer number of homeless people who seem to ride up and down all day on the free section to keep warm.
 

pemma

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Besides, if you are fit enough to walk a mile then the bus service would have to be very frequent or punctual to make it worth while waiting, rather than walking even when free.

It seems people in Greater Manchester getting rail tickets issued to Manchester CTLZ (allowing free city centre travel on Metrolink) results in many people getting a tram from Piccadilly to Market St or Market St to Victoria, so perhaps a Metrolink type frequency would be sufficient for that?

Another thing to consider is if you're somewhere unfamiliar then a free bus from the station to where ever you are going might be easiest even if you're more than capable of walking.
 

BRX

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No way.

The system can barely cope at the moment let alone a free for all.

agreed with @theking rail network on this over inhabited little island we live on is in enough of a mess, free transport just would never ever work.

This kind of thinking is depressing.

The main problem with our transport system at the moment is too many cars.

There are portions of our public transport system that are at capacity yes. But lots of it that is either heavily under-used, or which could have lots more capacity with a bit of investment. Rural and local buses for example.

There'd obviously be a problem if we just suddenly made everything free. But there could be benefits of making at least certain parts of the system free. And working towards a long term aim of increasing public transport use, and away from private cars, is the only way we're going to sort things out in a world of transport congestion.
 

pemma

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The key is car parking and possibly road charging. Central London works, even if you pay for your fare, because there is no affordable or feasible way of accessing work by car.

Would it not be the case that many people living in London itself wouldn't have anywhere they can put a car for free when they get home?
 

Islineclear3_1

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OAPs and under 16s get free travel on London buses AIUI. Free for all sounds like a good idea but who would pay all the "little" companies that run rail and bus services - especially in and around London? Enough to send shock waves through shareholders' minds....
 

6Gman

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It depends what you mean by "free public transport".

Noteworthy that most existing systems are city-based.

If all public transport was to be free imagine the pressure on the WCML if Liverpool were playing a Manchester team in the FA Cup Final!
 
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