Would free public transport work in the UK?

[Bletchleyite]

Possibly. After all, it seems to be working on the Birmingham cross-city route...

I certainly know of people (no, not me, I pay) who call late evening MKC-Bletchley a "free train". They'd take a few quid in PFs if they ever did a station block at Bletchley at that kind of time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Stagecoach in Newcastle make a profit margin of 23%.

I think that sums up how likely cheap or free buses are in this city.

I don't think free transport for everyone could be done without full re-regulation. Operations could still be privately run, but would have to be tendered. A per-passenger charge really wouldn't work, just as ENCTS doesn't properly work.

OTOH, I can see a lot in favour of it. One option to keep it vaguely manageable would be to give free travel to residents in their own areas, and to fund free travel in a "destination" area by way of a tourist tax. But then again, if you just make everything free to everyone you remove the need for ticket offices, TVMs, buses waiting around while people pay, RPIs..... I'd be interested to see how it added up.

One difficulty would be the way the UK doesn't really segregate local and IC rail, and a bus only option would be potentially disastrous for the railway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Besides, if you are fit enough to walk a mile then the bus service would have to be very frequent or punctual to make it worth while waiting, rather than walking even when free.

Unless there's a bus already there...I have taken a bus between the two Manchester University stops (barely 200m apart) before when in a massive hurry to get from one lecture to another just because the bus arrived at exactly the right time to make it worthwhile.

On the wider point, one concern is excessive use - but that isn't what seems to have happened with ENCTS passes. There's a bit of a novelty when you first get one, but in reality what they do is take car journeys off the road, which is good both for congestion and for road safety (as older drivers whose reactions and senses are failing may be less safe on the roads). My parents, for example, don't really use the bus any more than they would otherwise have driven. But if it wasn't free, they'd probably just go in the car.

 

[Tetchytyke]

On the wider point, one concern is excessive use - but that isn't what seems to have happened with ENCTS passes.

It has in more touristy areas, such as Cornwall and North Yorkshire, which is why such a scheme either has to be very localised or has to be run and funded nationally.

Generally, though, you're not going to get that much excessive use. I'm at work all day, I'm not going to take four buses to work instead of one just because it's free. Mr Audi Man won't leave his rep-mobile at home either. What a free or cheap bus scheme would do is put cash back in the pockets of the poorest people.

National rail services for free really wouldn't do this though.

 

[Bevan Price]

I think it COULD work, but would not be allowed to work in this country. First, you would get objections from the likes of the Daily Wail, and media controlled by an Australian, whining about increased income tax - and the Tories would do everything to try and stop it.

If it did occur, it would need a steady transition over several years - to allow time to improve infrastructure and construct a lot more trains.

Also, it would be best adopted as a scheme to discourage (not prevent) car use in busy urban areas. It would also be desirable to reduce the number of parking spaces in town/city centres, instead providing large park/ride facilities several miles from city centres (with a sensible charge to use them). Getting rid of 1st class and converting space to standard class only would ease some of the inevitable overcrowding on some lines.

Although free (at the point of travel) transport would be expensive to implement, there would be some substantial cost reductions. So no need for ticket selling people or equipment, ticket gates, travelling revenue staff, etc. Plus much less paperwork, no refunds for late running, a lot less work for accountants, etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It has in more touristy areas, such as Cornwall and North Yorkshire, which is why such a scheme either has to be very localised or has to be run and funded nationally.

An option to solve that problem without massive changes to ENCTS would be that all travel under ENCTS is charged to the user's home Council (i.e. the one that issued the pass), not the Council where the travel took place. When the system was set up (with passes just shown to the driver) the available technology would probably have made that difficult, but now it's all done electronically it wouldn't be difficult to have a central clearing house sorting the money out.

 

[al78]

I'm not sure it would have the desired effect, assuming the desired effect is to encourage people to choose public transport over their car. The car is just too easy, it is cheap, it is there outside your door when you need it, there is often somewhere to leave it very near your destination, and it is always there exactly when you need it, even if that was 4am. With careful journey planning cars journeys can often be quicker, as travelling to a railway station allowing enough time to get a ticket then travelling from a station at the other end to your final destination clocks up the journey time, that is assuming the journey is even practical by public transport. Only in areas where driving is unpleasant, slow, or expensive (through high parking/congestion charges) will public transport or bicycle be the first choice.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Very true! But Rail is geared towards doing just that! And without Bus Reform, its becoming clear that First Manchester and Stagecoach are developing the same strategy. I'd be interested to know if the same is happening in West Midlands and West Yorkshire, especially, as they both have a number of large towns surrounding the regional centre. I know that sounds like I'm drifting off-topic, but that's why I raised the question does it mean Free on all forms of public transport. Nightmare scenario would be (in GM & WM) Free Light Rail; Free heavy rail within (e.g) 10km of Manchester/Birmingham, but no reduction on buses.

To the extent to which it exists the spare capacity currently is on the bus network, not rail/tram, so if it were to be selective it would more likely be the other way round.

 

[trash80]

For me it would make little difference as Birmingham's transport network is far too concentrated on the city centre being the hub of everything and my commute is from one outlying suburb to another. Even free public transport wouldn't make a quadrupling of travel time worth it. Now if TfWM could change and improve connections that don't go via the centre we might be in business...

 

[The Ham]

If you were to stay to implement free travel a good way would be to start by charging people an amount that starts by attracting only those who travel a lot (say £5,000 for a national service, although a local level service would probably work better) and then over time reduce this figure downwards.

I would still have chargeable services (say first class or intercity services or into zone 1 of London) which would still require some staff to monitor, but would still lead to a significant reduction in staffing levels.

Combined there would still be some income to part fund the system, yet there wouldn't be universal uptake from day one. Which would mean an increase in passengers but without overload the system

 

[yorksrob]

Unless there's a bus already there...I have taken a bus between the two Manchester University stops (barely 200m apart) before when in a massive hurry to get from one lecture to another just because the bus arrived at exactly the right time to make it worthwhile.

On the wider point, one concern is excessive use - but that isn't what seems to have happened with ENCTS passes. There's a bit of a novelty when you first get one, but in reality what they do is take car journeys off the road, which is good both for congestion and for road safety (as older drivers whose reactions and senses are failing may be less safe on the roads). My parents, for example, don't really use the bus any more than they would otherwise have driven. But if it wasn't free, they'd probably just go in the car.

Yes, this is very similar to my parents experience. They use the bus pas for a couple of odd journeys a week, particularly since they gave up driving for eyesight reasons, but they've got better things to do than drive around on the bus all day for the sake of it. Of course, it also helps to stretch the kitty further when we're all travelling together.

 

[Robertj21a]

An option to solve that problem without massive changes to ENCTS would be that all travel under ENCTS is charged to the user's home Council (i.e. the one that issued the pass), not the Council where the travel took place. When the system was set up (with passes just shown to the driver) the available technology would probably have made that difficult, but now it's all done electronically it wouldn't be difficult to have a central clearing house sorting the money out.

Presumably there's already some form of 'clearing house' to cater for the many bus routes that pass through a number of different councils ?

 

[cuccir]

Unless there's a bus already there...I have taken a bus between the two Manchester University stops (barely 200m apart) before when in a massive hurry to get from one lecture to another just because the bus arrived at exactly the right time to make it worthwhile

Is the bus situation still quite as crazy along Wilmslow/Oxford Road in Manchester as it was 10 or 15 years ago? I seem to remember that competition on the route mean that buses were pretty much every 1 - 2 minutes.

That's probably a bit of an intense example, but for any free transit system to be worthwhile presumably the aim would be to encourage people to not drive across a city center; rather, they'd park on the edge of the area or connect in with paid public transport. So it would need to have a bus/metro/train/tram at something approaching that level of frequency; anything much worse than every 5-7 minutes would struggle.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Not free for all, but Slovakia has gone the furthest towards free rail travel: http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/passenger/single-view/view/slovakia-funds-free-rail-travel.html

SLOVAKIA: With effect from November 17, around 46% of the population will be eligible for free travel on subsidised train services, under a proposal endorsed by the government of Prime Minister Robert Fico on October 22.
The provision is part of a €250m national economic stimulus package approved by the cabinet in June, which includes a series of measures to support rail-based public transport. Free second class travel will be provided on all subsidised services run by the state-owned passenger operator ZSSK, and on the Bratislava – Dunajská Streda – Komárno regional services which have been run by Czech private operator RegioJet since March 2012

It doesn't apply to IC/EC trains, or to buses. You have to pay normal supplements where required,
So in UK terms it wouldn't apply to "premium"-paying franchises, so that's half of them.
Although the concession applies to all EU citizens, foreigners have to apply in person for an identity card to prove eligibility.

Several other countries have free or discounted senior fares on demand using normal ID (eg passport).
Hungary is free (2nd class), Norway and Finland are 50%, Belgium €6 flat fare off peak.
There are then the railcard-type schemes. Spain is especially good value at €6 for a 1-year senior railcard offering 40% off.
Here, the Welsh Government funds free senior travel on the Central Wales, Conwy Valley and Borderlands lines, using the bus pass scheme (for locals only).
Among the schemes not mentioned previously, Merseytravel funds free senior travel throughout its area for residents, including all rail services.

 

[Spankthemonkey]

From an economic point of view if all trains were free there would be a serious hit to the public purse of many billions in lost fares, and also of fuel duty as people switched from their cars - who would pay for this?

The counter arguement of course is that billions are lost each year by productive workers sat in traffic jams. If logistically everyone could get to work smoothly by public transport this would be negated and undoubtedly the mental health of commuters would improve.

Socially alcohol dependence would go up as people stopped for regular drinks everywhere knowing they would not drive. If all public transport was free (including buses and trams) this would be magnified, as would obesity as mentioned above, people would hop on for a stop or two instead of walking.

Environmentally of course there would be massive benefits.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Presumably there's already some form of 'clearing house' to cater for the many bus routes that pass through a number of different councils ?

It's done based on where the passenger boarded, so it's a relatively simple problem that I think is just done by the bus companies claiming directly from each relevant Council.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is the bus situation still quite as crazy along Wilmslow/Oxford Road in Manchester as it was 10 or 15 years ago? I seem to remember that competition on the route mean that buses were pretty much every 1 - 2 minutes.

Not quite as bad but it's still way overbussed and grindingly inefficient compared with what it could be.

That's probably a bit of an intense example, but for any free transit system to be worthwhile presumably the aim would be to encourage people to not drive across a city center; rather, they'd park on the edge of the area or connect in with paid public transport. So it would need to have a bus/metro/train/tram at something approaching that level of frequency; anything much worse than every 5-7 minutes would struggle.

You just need the right amount of capacity.

 

[Bletchleyite]

as would obesity as mentioned above, people would hop on for a stop or two instead of walking.

I'm not sure everyone would. I'd suggest observing use by ENCTS pass holders should give you an idea, but if you consider that ENCTS pass holders are a demographic who are older and typically less able to walk that means there will be more of that than there would be in the population as a whole, and I don't observe a huge amount of it.

Many farepayers are, in any case, paying by way of various kinds of Travelcard, using which such marginal journeys are basically free anyway, and people still aren't making them.

So I don't think that is a massive concern. Indeed, I wouldn't be surprised if it went the other way and obesity reduced due to people walking to/from bus stops and stations at each end of their journey and during connections rather than just taking two steps and getting in the car.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, this is very similar to my parents experience. They use the bus pas for a couple of odd journeys a week, particularly since they gave up driving for eyesight reasons, but they've got better things to do than drive around on the bus all day for the sake of it.

And if there is a lonely elderly person who finds it is beneficial for his/her mental health to ride around on the bus all day as there genuinely is nothing better to do, at least managing to talk to the odd driver or other passenger, is that not a good thing?

(I work from home quite a lot, and I do find it really isolating even given that I tend to be out doing stuff most evenings - it is sometimes a bit depressing to think that the only person I talk to, other than electronically, is the woman behind the counter in the chippy some days - and a lot of the people in this demographic don't even have the electronic interaction).

 

[Pugwash]

Since deregulation bus fares have risen far above inflation and towns have become far more congested, but it is far cheaper for me to drive and park than get the bus.

If bus fares were free or a very small amount to deter people riding all day then I would get the bus. It would save billions in congestion costs.

 

[jon0844]

So by "free", we're really talking about 100% funded from taxation and subsidies rather than fares?

I suppose the question is whether people who currently travel by car would change their travel habits if they knew that the cost of getting to work by public transport was already included in their PAYE and council tax.

I think it would sound great, but then people would find it near impossible to travel on public transport and some would go back to their car. Sections of the media, quite likely left-leaning who wanted the free for all transport in the first place, would then be first to say it had created a 'them and us' society, with the rich able to use the roads and the poor having to suffer overcrowding. I guess the next step would be to demand that those using their car pay more to fund those on public transport, all the time creating more resentment.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Sheffield was moving towards free transport in the early 80's as part of The People's Republic of South Yorkshire plans. Thatcher, though, put a stop to it so we never found out if it would work.

It does work, as when I've passed through Barnsley once on a Saturday I noticed that most of the younger ones didn't bother going to the ticket office to pay for their ticket - they just jumped on at the very front of the train and hoped that the guard didn't come down and ching them before bailing out at Meadowhall.

Probably worth mentioning that Leeds along with Bradford, Huddersfield, Sheffield, Rotherham and Manchester and probably a few other places did have Free City Buses which ran round a loop linking key points such as railway stations, bus stations, city/town centres, universities, colleges, etc. When the 50p charge was slapped on the Leeds City Bus I noticed that a lot of people stopped using it as it was no longer free, the LCB has since been absorbed into the service 5.

 

[Dr_Paul]

I certainly know of people (no, not me, I pay) who call late evening MKC-Bletchley a "free train". They'd take a few quid in PFs if they ever did a station block at Bletchley at that kind of time.

This also happened in the days of the 'Bendy' articulated buses in London. They became known as 'courtesy buses' because of the numbers of people who didn't pay their fare.

 

[underbank]

Can we actually have a public transport system before we start worrying about whether to make it free or not. There are huge areas of the country where public transport is pathetic. It takes my son 2 hours to travel just 5 miles to school each morning - yes he would be quicker walking, but that's out of the question when he has to carry a 10kg rucksack, a games kit bag and a musical instrument (school has no lockers!). That's because despite us being on the major A road into our nearest city, there are no direct bus routes. It "may" work in the major cities which have decent public transport but in smaller cities and towns that don't, there's no point making a non existent or impractical service free.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

The take up would not be as great as people imagine - even with free public transport I drove to work. The time and convenience of the car plus the personal space and being able to do what you want in that space just make it worth most people's while to run a car. How would many people do their weekly shop using an even more crowded public transport network ? We have a system that cannot cope now and actually prices people off it at certain times. Londoners over 60/65 , under 18, those with disabilities, TfL staff and their families all have the right to free public transport so it would be a good measure to find out how many of them run a car and how regularly they use it as a benchmark to how successful a totally free public transport system would be in reducing traffic.

 

[brel york]

Ridiculous soviet style pipe dream

 

[6Gman]

Can we actually have a public transport system before we start worrying about whether to make it free or not. There are huge areas of the country where public transport is pathetic. It takes my son 2 hours to travel just 5 miles to school each morning - yes he would be quicker walking, but that's out of the question when he has to carry a 10kg rucksack, a games kit bag and a musical instrument (school has no lockers!). That's because despite us being on the major A road into our nearest city, there are no direct bus routes. It "may" work in the major cities which have decent public transport but in smaller cities and towns that don't, there's no point making a non existent or impractical service free.

I think this is an important point. People living in areas with little or no access to public transport will have a legitimate complaint when they're forced to pay extra taxes for other people to enjoy free travel.

 

[pemma]

Ridiculous soviet style pipe dream

Guess which party introduced a national bus company in Gibraltar and introduced a year long trial of free bus travel to all. Clue: It wasn't the Gibraltar Socialist Labour Party, it was a party which has close ties with the Conservatives in the UK.

 

[Taunton]

There have been studies in the past. There are certain groups who already had free travel. Police officers in a number of cities were given free travel, on and off duty, from way back in the 1970s, and as many had cars as well that was a group to study. It was found that they did not really use the service any more, and continued to use cars on the grounds that they were more convenient, often a lot more.

In London schoolkids up to the age of 16, and adults over 60, have free travel. That leaves just 44 years of payment, just half a lifetime. The adults still economically active and in work have as many cars and lifestyles as typical adults do, study of them showed no discernible additional use, apart from some totally leisure journeys made to places "just because we have a pass now", which is not what public transport is all about.

 

[ivanhoe]

Sheffield was moving towards free transport in the early 80's as part of The People's Republic of South Yorkshire plans. Thatcher, though, put a stop to it so we never found out if it would work.

They had got to the stage where the cost of collecting the ridiculously low fares was greater than the income it brought in.