Would I be Tresspassing on Scotrail Property?

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bAzTNM

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Am I illegally trespassing on Scotrail property?

Take Barnhill Station in Glasgow. Platform 1.

Just behind the entrance to the platform there is a small, interesting looking forest thing. Once you go inside the forest, you are separated by a fence, then it's the actual rail track. You can walk right past the "Don't Go Any Further" sign, but still be in this wee forest and be right next to the tracks, protected by the fence.

Am I tresspassing on their property? I wouldn't use it for spotting, just to have a sniff around. There is no closed gates, no warning or keep out signs, but it has been used for fly-tipping

P.S. I haven't walked in it. Just curious. I wouldn't do it if it was illegal.
 
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chuckles1066

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Am I illegally trespassing on Scotrail property?

Take Barnhill Station in Glasgow. Platform 1.

Just behind the entrance to the platform there is a small, interesting looking forest thing. Once you go inside the forest, you are separated by a fence, then it's the actual rail track. You can walk right past the "Don't Go Any Further" sign, but still be in this wee forest and be right next to the tracks, protected by the fence.

Am I tresspassing on their property? I wouldn't use it for spotting, just to have a sniff around. There is no closed gates, no warning or keep out signs, but it has been used for fly-tipping

P.S. I haven't walked in it. Just curious. I wouldn't do it if it was illegal.
Trespassing isn't illegal and never has been.

It's a civil offence; the landowner can take you to court but can only obtain judgement on losses he/she has actually suffered.

So just wandering around private property is fine unless you've cut a fence to gain access, for example.
 
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If there is fly tipping, I guess there is another entrance.
As long as there is a fence separating you from the tracks, I would have thought it was unlikely you would risk prosecution. I know nothing about Scottish Law.
Bit surprised that there is no fence or gate separating the public station areas from other land owned by the railway, or other owners.
(Maybe some locals use it as a short cut? Probably get stopped up one day)

I used to know a railway which you could walk next to the tracks, and some sections marked on the map as a public footpath.
It is now sadly closed. Wenford Bridge to Boscarne Junction (Light Railway). Worked up to the sixties by the 1st generation Beattie Tank engines, then a Diesel Shunter. About 20 x 12t wagons on average. Average speed 7mph. Tight curves, few fences.
 
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GB

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Trespassing isn't illegal and never has been.

It's a civil offence; the landowner can take you to court but can only obtain judgement on losses he/she has actually suffered.

So just wandering around private property is fine unless you've cut a fence to gain access, for example.
Trespass on railway, government or crown property is a criminal offence. General tresspass maybe civil but if you are armed whilst doing it (airgun, firearm, knife etc etc) then this also becomes a criminal offence.

Scotland may well be different though.
 

wbbminerals

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If there's a fence seperating this area from the railway then you would almost certainly not be trespassing on the railway whilst on it.
 

Clip

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Most of you are missing the bigger picture here in as much that FSR own no land surrounding the railway and stations so you wouldnt be trespassing on their land whatsoever no matter what country you were in, same with most of the national rail network.

I am amazed at how many enthusiasts miss this very salient point which actually answers the OP better then any other post on this thread.
 

bAzTNM

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It is a bit of a tough situation. You pass the "Barnhill" sign then you're faced with the entrance to the wee forest.
 

rail-britain

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It is a bit of a tough situation. You pass the "Barnhill" sign then you're faced with the entrance to the wee forest.
How is it tough?
The area looks fairly well defined, from Petershil Road with high fences and boundary fences, compared to other stations where there is nothing at all
Sadly the other entrance does not have any google images
If there are gaps in the fence, then this would be the responsibility of Network Rail, who in general have fitted ridiculously large fences over the last few years and destroyed what used to be very good views

A similar situation however exists at Shieldmuir station
The public footpath (to the station) is well defined, but the bordering land can easily be accessed, and sadly many people use this as a shortcut (across the WCML) rather than use the footbridge
I have now lost count of the number of people I see using the route instead
On one visit the BTP were sitting on the other side, at Morven Drive, but seemed more concerned about myself on the platform than the people walking across the railway line
 

rail-britain

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Just meant that I didn't know if I was actually on their property or not
The same could be said for many open unfenced locations throughout Scotland
It can be quite difficult to work out who, if anyone, actually owns them
Even some local authorities, commercial companies, organisations do not know and have to remove their equipment when they later find out they didn't actually own the land!

Ironically, there are still many rail lines across Scotland which are not bordered, fenced, or closed off
 

michael769

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I am familiar with the station in question. The sign is there to deter people from walking off the end of the platform and onto the railway on the inside the fence. The area outside the fence is IMO open to the public.

It is not 100% clear who the owner of the area in question is - I suspect it is common land for the benefit of the occupants of the adjacent industrial estate, but in any case under Scotland's Right to Roam the public have a right of access on foot provided they remain outside the fence.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I am familiar with the station in question. The sign relates is to prevent people walking off the end of the platform and onto the railway on the inside the fence. The area outside the fence is open to the public.

It is not clear who the owner of the area in question is, but under Scotland's Right to Roam the public have a right of access on foot.

EDIT: On the other hand the large wooded area beside platform 2 which is completely surrounded by railway lines is almost certainly railway property and not open to the public!
 

chuckles1066

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However trespassing on the railways is an illegal act.

TP
Pah, isn't it a BTP matter? In any event, it's rubbish and would never stand up in a grown up courtroom.

S55 of the British Transport Commission Act 1949 demands that, as part of their evidence, they need to show that there was a warning notice not to trespass at the nearest railway station to where the trespass took place.

Have you heard anything so ridiculous? You can be done for not reading a sign 10 miles away at a place that you might never have visited?

Plus, this is not the danger sign you usually see at the end of a platform, but commonly a plaque near the station entrance or ticket hall.
 

34Short

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Yes and No.

Scotrail couldn't have you - But I'm pretty sure Network Rail/BTP could have you, seeing as it is Network Rail's land.
 

BestWestern

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Pah, isn't it a BTP matter? In any event, it's rubbish and would never stand up in a grown up courtroom.
I would have to offer the obvious response that the issue of railway trespass is most certainly not "rubbish", rather it is life endangering and enormously disruptive, and really ought to be taken rather seriously by all concerned. I would hope that a 'grown up' Court would take a rather dim view of hundreds/thousands of commuters being held up by some idiot going for a walk on the track.
 

michael769

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I would have to offer the obvious response that the issue of railway trespass is most certainly not "rubbish", rather it is life endangering and enormously disruptive, and really ought to be taken rather seriously by all concerned. I would hope that a 'grown up' Court would take a rather dim view of hundreds/thousands of commuters being held up by some idiot going for a walk on the track.
I have to agree with this. Railway trespass incidents cause huge disruption and economic loss in terms of delays and cancellations and I can assure folks that it is something that the police and courts take very seriously. Dealing with it is not limited to BTP where they are not available territorial police officers have all the powers they need to deal with railway trespassers.

Trespassers are also likely to find themselves spending a substantial amount of time in a police station trying to convince the officers that they were not involved in vandalism or cable theft which as this mornings events reminds us is rife on the railways at the moment.
 
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Once again forum memberrs have read a post with their heart rather than their head. Read Chuckles1066's post again , he's not alluding to the act of tresspass but to the ridiculous section 55 referring to signs warning not to tresspass which may be five or more miles away from an access point.
 

michael769

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I thought people were discussing the very strong, but quite wrong statement made in the first sentence of that post!
 

BestWestern

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I thought people were discussing the very strong, but quite wrong statement made in the first sentence of that post!
Indeed! :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Once again forum memberrs have read a post with their heart rather than their head. Read Chuckles1066's post again , he's not alluding to the act of tresspass but to the ridiculous section 55 referring to signs warning not to tresspass which may be five or more miles away from an access point.
The post wasn't written that way, to my mind. Though I do agree with that particular point.
 
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For railway signs the "Don't Go Any Further" sign is not clear like traditional rail signs.
Presuming it is Network Rail's land, a sign saying something more like '' NO Access beyond this point - Trespassing on railway land is a criminal offense - Network Rail'' etc.

As any prosecution (if an offence was committed) would be under a railway act, Scottish Law may not be relevant!
 
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michael769

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As any prosecution (if an offence was committed) would be under a railway act, Scottish Law may not be relevant!
It is entirely relevant as any prosecution would be held under Scots Law. As the railway act is properly enacted under Scots Law it applies in Scotland perfectly well. The Right To Roam does not extend to operational railways.
 

the sniper

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Pah, isn't it a BTP matter? In any event, it's rubbish and would never stand up in a grown up courtroom.

S55 of the British Transport Commission Act 1949 demands that, as part of their evidence, they need to show that there was a warning notice not to trespass at the nearest railway station to where the trespass took place.

Have you heard anything so ridiculous? You can be done for not reading a sign 10 miles away at a place that you might never have visited?

Plus, this is not the danger sign you usually see at the end of a platform, but commonly a plaque near the station entrance or ticket hall.
I don't see what you are on about in your first paragraph or understand why you're so troubled by S55. Evidencing the presence of the sign is basically just a formality. You're not being 'done' for not reading the sign, it's irrelevant whether you even know the sign exists.

Any Constable can deal with railway trespass by way of PND, reporting for process or arrest if the grounds are there for it. Courts do take it seriously. I believe most non-BTP Constables will be aware of the offence because it is normally written on PND pads. Stone throwing is also PNDable.
 

the sniper

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What is PND please? Police national database?
PND can stand for that, but it also commonly stands for Penalty Notice for Disorder, which is what I was referring to. More details about PNDs can be found here: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/police/penalty-notices/ and here: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/police/penalty-notices/penalty-notice-introduction11. Sorry for not being clearer on that. :)

Railway stone throwing and trespass fall under the lower tier and carry a £50 fine for those aged 16+.
 
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