• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Wrexham redouble

Status
Not open for further replies.

merlodlliw

Established Member
Joined
8 Mar 2009
Messages
5,852
Location
Wrexham/ Denbighshire /Flintshire triangle
So it is a waste of taxpayers money then? One extra service every 2 hours is certainly not worth the money spent.

In its current format yes, its nothing like future capacity we envisaged,plus rail travel is expected to increase 38% in the next 20 years.
Whoever advised Welsh Government should hang their heads in shame, those giving the presentation were less than impressed with a contract with no future capacity.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
For "South East Wales" you should have put "Cardiff". The WAG don't care about anything east of Cardiff. Witness the fiasco in the Monmouthshire western valley with trains running to Cardiff instead of Newport.

I fully agree.
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Greenback

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
9 Aug 2009
Messages
15,268
Location
Llanelli
For "South East Wales" you should have put "Cardiff". The WAG don't care about anything east of Cardiff. Witness the fiasco in the Monmouthshire western valley with trains running to Cardiff instead of Newport.

The WG aren't very interested in anything west of Bridgend, either, to be fair. They used to be quite interested in Anglesey, but that's died out a bit now as well.
 

Gareth Marston

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2010
Messages
6,231
Location
Newtown Montgomeryshire
I have copy of Network Rails Welsh Route Study presentation dated 11th April 2014. It lists conditional outputs drawn up with Stakeholder Aspirations though it does note Welsh Government as "to be confirmed". The planning horizon is 30 years.

The ITSS indicative Train Service Spec gives for services around Wrexham bear in mind in 2043 as to what stage they'll come on line...

1 Tph Wrexham General to Bidston
1 Tph Wrexham General to Hawarden Bridge

0.5 Tph Cardiff Central to Holyhead
0.5 Tph Cardiff Central to Liverpool Lime St via Chester & Halton Curve
0.5 Tph West Midlands to Holyhead
0.5 Tph Wrexham General to Liverpool Lime St via Chester & Halton Curve
1 Tph Wrexham General to London

That's 3 Tph each way between Wrexham and Chester in addition paths should be available for 1 to 6 Class 6 freight trains a day.
 

merlodlliw

Established Member
Joined
8 Mar 2009
Messages
5,852
Location
Wrexham/ Denbighshire /Flintshire triangle
The redouble raised its head in the Senned yesterday,Network Rail being given a deadline to report back, is interesting.
MEDIA RELEASE/DATGANIAD I'R CYFRYNGAU
Release/Rhyddhau: Thursday, May 22, 2014
Contact/ Cyswllt: withdrawn.
Minister acknowledges Aled Roberts AM Campaign for better Rail Investment
The North Wales Liberal Democrat Assembly Member Aled Roberts was thanked by the Welsh Government’s Transport Minister in the Assembly this afternoon for bringing to her attention ways in which the dualling of the line between Wrexham and Chester could provide more trains for people who want to travel from Wrexham to Liverpool or Manchester.
Transport Minister Edwina Hart also announced that Network Rail had been given a deadline of May 23rd to respond to the concerns that Aled Roberts had raised with her.
“The Welsh Government has commissioned Network Rail to deliver journey improvements between North Wales and Cardiff,” commented Aled Roberts. “These improvements will reduce journey times but is essential that the necessary work, including the dualling, improve train travel from Wrexham to Liverpool and Manchester as well as Cardiff”.
As well as undertaking track work to increase line-speeds at various points, Network Rail will be “doubling” the track between Rossett Junction and Saltney Junction. The original scheme would have doubled a much longer section between Wrexham and Chester. Aled Roberts believes that the reduced scheme, following a decision by the Welsh Government, will not provide for increased services with the North West of England and therefore provide poor value for money.
“In my opinion Network Rail did not make it clear that essential maintenance on the line was due and the Welsh Government has ended up paying for this, as well as dualling part of the Wrexham to Chester line. If Network Rail had included essential maintenance funding then the Welsh Government might have been able to dual another two miles of track which would greatly increase the number of trains using the line and connecting Wrexham with towns and cities in the North West of England.”
ENDS

Aled Roberts was leader of Wrexham Council for a few years before becoming an AM, and has in depth knowledge of the redouble,he is taking the lead on the redouble on behalf of all opposition parties in the Assembly.The Ministers statement will be on the WG website later today.
 

The Planner

Veteran Member
Joined
15 Apr 2008
Messages
15,954
Nicely span, as I have said before, if it wasn't for the WG trying to do this North South speeding up project and paying for it then NR would not have touched this with a barge pole, trying to blame us for issues which were never part of the original plan is a bit rich! It would be very poor planning if you didn't try to combine heavy maintenance or other work with a major project like this. I can imagine what would be said NR spent loads on the maintenance which would have required blocks and then came back later on to sort out the doubling.....
 

merlodlliw

Established Member
Joined
8 Mar 2009
Messages
5,852
Location
Wrexham/ Denbighshire /Flintshire triangle
Heres the official WG minutes of yesterday in the Senedd,between Aled Roberts AM and the Rail Minister Edwina Hart

12. Will the Minister provide an update on the task force on modernising the north Wales rail network? OAQ(4)0425(EST)



Good progress has been made, and I am expecting that the strategic outline case will be completed later this year.

Thank you for the answer. You have mentioned two reports to be received during the summer. I also think that there was work to be completed by last month by Network Rail. The work on dualling the line between Wrexham and Chester, however, is to be completed by March of next year. If there are problems regarding capacity on the network in order to improve links with Liverpool and Manchester, is there enough time for the Welsh Government to change the scheme?

I am not sure about sufficient time, in answer to that particular question. I have been concerned, as a result of matters that you have raised with me, about a whole range of issues within north Wales with regard to Network Rail. I will get its formal response on 23 May, and I will immediately enlighten Members when we return from recess about anything that impacts on anything that I may or may not have said in this Chamber on this matter.

Perhaps not a barge pole Planner, but if it were not for the redouble,NR would have had to replace the track anyway, at its expense, Your own report(NR) said it was in a poor state.
 
Last edited:

TDK

Established Member
Joined
19 Apr 2008
Messages
4,155
Location
Crewe
Poor state for what it is required for now? or for the improvements?

Parts of the single line are in a poor state for any train to transverse it with some poor riding especially on the jointed track, the initial report that I read concluded that all of the jointed track would need replacing and some realigned. The rail is already in place for improvements. The section between Rossett and Wrexham North Junction was upgraded about 4 years ago but I think NR decided to leave the rest. It is the same as the Dee Marsh to Bidston stretch, replaced as far as Dee Marsh and left to Bidston, anything to do with freight using this stretch was it or just a co-incidence that the new track bed stops at Dee Marsh yard?.
 

Gareth Marston

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2010
Messages
6,231
Location
Newtown Montgomeryshire
Poor state for what it is required for now? or for the improvements?

No one is questioning the validity of combining renewal/enhancement/ replacement work at same time it's the fact that the third party funder of the enhancement appears to be bearing the cost of the replacement which should be a NR license responsibility.

We can split hairs about how far down the line NR would expect the replacement as a like for like to be but the report and everyone's experience of going over it including mine is that this is sooner rather than later!
 

merlodlliw

Established Member
Joined
8 Mar 2009
Messages
5,852
Location
Wrexham/ Denbighshire /Flintshire triangle
Hoe can I find the original report on the redouble?
The consultants report from the feasibility study a few years ago was followed by
(the joint URS/Scott Wilson/Network Rail report to WG, dated 2011).

It can be found on the Welsh Government web site,have a look at North Wales rail news,last weeks edition showed some of the original drawings http://nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm, the article is called "Network Rail speaks to Rossett" The amputation was at the proposed Rossett Junction,servering anything in the plans towards Wrexham for future paths & capacity.

Counted 23 on the Cardiff flyer st Shrewsbury yesterday @ 1024 Gareth Marston

Thats 12 in one car and 11 in the other car of the 175,Non stop Shrewsbury to South Wales , usually Mon/Thurs it carries less,says it all really.
 
Last edited:

Gareth Marston

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2010
Messages
6,231
Location
Newtown Montgomeryshire
The consultants report from the feasibility study a few years ago was followed by


It can be found on the Welsh Government web site,have a look at North Wales rail news,last weeks edition showed some of the original drawings http://nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm, the article is called "Network Rail speaks to Rossett" The amputation was at the proposed Rossett Junction,servering anything in the plans towards Wrexham for future paths & capacity.



Thats 12 in one car and 11 in the other car of the 175,Non stop Shrewsbury to South Wales , usually Mon/Thurs it carries less,says it all really.

15 & 8 in fact! And by the reserved seat labels most had it can't have generated a lot of revenue if they were all advanced purchase.
 

merlodlliw

Established Member
Joined
8 Mar 2009
Messages
5,852
Location
Wrexham/ Denbighshire /Flintshire triangle
15 & 8 in fact! And by the reserved seat labels most had it can't have generated a lot of revenue if they were all advanced purchase.

From the day of its introduction as WAG 2 open access, to todays ATW franchise take over of this WG open access service , it never generated much interest from the public, it does not stop at any Marches stations,which may get traffic.
 
Last edited:

Gareth Marston

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2010
Messages
6,231
Location
Newtown Montgomeryshire
From the day of its introduction as WAG 2 open access, to todays ATW franchise take over of this WG open access service , it never generated much interest from the public, it does not stop at any Marches stations,which may get traffic.

I'm surprised ATW keep running it's got to be one of poorest revenu generators they have. It's surely a lesson for those that want an hourly service from Holyhead to Cardiff.

As you can see in post 393 the thinking from NR and most stakeholders is to use the 2nd express path south of Shrewsbury for a two hrly Cardiff to Liverpool service
 
Last edited:

Llanigraham

On Moderation
Joined
23 Mar 2013
Messages
6,103
Location
Powys
From the day of its introduction as WAG 2 open access, to todays ATW franchise take over of this WG open access service , it never generated much interest from the public, it does not stop at any Marches stations,which may get traffic.

Shrewsbury is in the Marches!
 

merlodlliw

Established Member
Joined
8 Mar 2009
Messages
5,852
Location
Wrexham/ Denbighshire /Flintshire triangle

Of course my error, but all the rest including the ATW hub at Hereford are ignored.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm surprised ATW keep running it's got to be one of poorest revenu generators they have. It's surely a lesson for those that want an hourly service from Holyhead to Cardiff.

As you can see in post 393 the thinking from NR and most stakeholders is to use the 2nd express path south of Shrewsbury for a two hrly Cardiff to Liverpool service

I am sure after the redouble shambles WG must realise there is no market for extra direct Cardiff/Holyhead services,
 

Gareth Marston

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2010
Messages
6,231
Location
Newtown Montgomeryshire
Of course my error, but all the rest including the ATW hub at Hereford are ignored.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I am sure after the redouble shambles WG must realise there is no market for extra direct Cardiff/Holyhead services,

I'm sure SCRUA et al will be hammering this point home.
 

merlodlliw

Established Member
Joined
8 Mar 2009
Messages
5,852
Location
Wrexham/ Denbighshire /Flintshire triangle
We had good publicity in yesterday's Daily Post,the local regional paper,the printed edition carried this article on pages one and four. However the the job is £49 millions not as the reporter states.

Warning £30m rail plan to cut journey times could fail North Wales
May 26, 2014 15:54 By Tom Bodden

It is feared a scaled-back plan for dualling track between Wrexham and Chester will not boost train capacity

Concerns have been raised about cutting train journey times between Holyhead and Cardiff
A major £30m investment to reduce rail journey times between Holyhead and Cardiff could fail to achieve key strategic transport aims in North East Wales.

The warning came from North Wales AM Aled Roberts who fears a scaled-back plan for dualling of track between Wrexham and Chester will fail to increase train capacity on the line linking the region to Merseyside and Manchester.

Transport minister Edwina Hart revealed she had sought reassurances from Network Rail over the numbers of trains which will be able to travel on the improved link after Mr Roberts raised his concerns.

Research by the Mersey Dee Alliance indicated an estimated employment growth of 45-55,000 jobs over the next 20 years in the cross-border region, including the projected 20,000 at Wirral Waters Enterprise Zone, emphasising the need for better transport links.

A report by the North East Wales Integrated Transport Task Force last year warned that ‘while public transport exists, it does not meet aspirations in terms of linkage to employment, frequency or quality of service’.

“Journey times are simply not competitive to those by car and there is clear evidence that this is having a significant impact... The fact that 1 in 5 turn down job interviews or employment offers because of inaccessibility speaks for itself.”

Mr Roberts said: “The Welsh Government has commissioned Network Rail to deliver journey improvements between North Wales and Cardiff.

“These improvements will reduce journey times but is essential that the necessary works, including the dualling, improve train travel from Wrexham to Liverpool and Manchester as well as Cardiff.”

Network Rail will be “doubling” the track between Rossett Junction and Saltney Junction but an original scheme would have doubled a much longer section between Wrexham and Chester.

“In my opinion Network Rail did not make it clear that essential maintenance on the line was due and the Welsh Government has ended up paying for this, as well as dualling part of the Wrexham to Chester line,” he said.

“If Network Rail had included essential maintenance funding then the Welsh Government might have been able to dual another two miles of track which would greatly increase the number of trains using the line and connecting Wrexham with towns and cities in the North West of England.”

Mrs Hart was asked by Mr Roberts if there were capacity problems on the network to improve links with Liverpool and Manchester, was there enough time for the Welsh Government to change the scheme?

She said: “I have been concerned, as a result of matters that you have raised with me, about a whole range of issues within north Wales with regard to Network Rail.” The minister added she would update AMs after a response from the rail network.

The same same edition carried a readers letter from me.
 

reb0118

Established Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
28 Jan 2010
Messages
3,206
Location
Bo'ness, West Lothian
I visited the Network Rail "drop in" at Rossett village Hall on Monday afternoon,it was manned by some four NR staff & Colas Rail.

I came away disappointed as did many others,with our worst scenario being confirmed about the £49 millions being spent by Welsh Government on the contract. In brief NR staff told us......


Indeed I came away disappointed,with Welsh Governments decision to take no account of the visitors to the Wrexham super prison to be built........

Would it be be possible to use convict labour from this new prison to help in some of the less technically demanding aspects of this re doubling? As in my excellent post on the proposed extension of the Borders Railway here.

It would be nice to let the prisoners get some fresh air from time to time and rebuilding part of our rail network would be a good recompense for their previous indiscretions.
 

merlodlliw

Established Member
Joined
8 Mar 2009
Messages
5,852
Location
Wrexham/ Denbighshire /Flintshire triangle
Would it be be possible to use convict labour from this new prison to help in some of the less technically demanding aspects of this re doubling? As in my excellent post on the proposed extension of the Borders Railway here.

It would be nice to let the prisoners get some fresh air from time to time and rebuilding part of our rail network would be a good recompense for their previous indiscretions.

Unfortunately health and safety regs etc Would prevent this
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The Prison builder has been chosen and been given the go ahead by the Ministry this morning, now perhaps Welsh Government can use some of the sale price or lease monies it will receive for extra rail capacity in Wrexham has it owns the site. At the Network Rail(Wales) drop in at Rossett last week, staff told me they fear the visitors to the prison may well swamp the current heavily used rail service to Chester. in my opinion It was ridiculous for planners to imply every Prison visitor would use a car.

link for full story. http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/wrexham-super-prison-built-lend-7192610
 
Last edited:

Gareth Marston

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2010
Messages
6,231
Location
Newtown Montgomeryshire
Errrm, because the WG are subsidising it and it is profitable even if run empty?

I was referring to the Llandudno to Cardiff run that's non stop from Shrewsbury to Newport which is not WG directly funded.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Unfortunately health and safety regs etc Would prevent this
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The Prison builder has been chosen and been given the go ahead by the Ministry this morning, now perhaps Welsh Government can use some of the sale price or lease monies it will receive for extra rail capacity in Wrexham has it owns the site. At the Network Rail(Wales) drop in at Rossett last week, staff told me they fear the visitors to the prison may well swamp the current heavily used rail service to Chester. in my opinion It was ridiculous for planners to imply every Prison visitor would use a car.

link for full story. http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/wrexham-super-prison-built-lend-7192610

Rosset station site is now full of orange army and equipment.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top