Wrexham redouble

[TDK]

Another downgrade then...

Rosset has always been 60mph unless you mean it isn't increasing to 75mph. To be fair it would not make much difference as most units would never maintain 75 up Gresford bank, most of them can't even maintain 60mph. On average a 3 car 175 at full power will, a 2 car 175 will if it is a good one, 1 out of 10 158's will but I have never had a 150 that does. By the time you get to the A583 bridge an average 158 will be chugging at about 57 and a 150 at around 54mph. From 75mph most units would be well below this.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I quite agree with you.
We saw 2+5 HSTs briefly on Virgin XC before Voyagers took over completely.
Even they would be too big for Wales & Borders, and any fewer coaches makes the trains unaffordable in power car maintenance terms.
Class 68+Mk3+DVT might work but still a lumbering over-size unit with high access charges.
If HSTs go to Scotland (Glasgow-Aberdeen/Inverness) maybe their Class 170s would be freed up for W&B.

170's are reasonable units if they are in par with the 168's but a 175 will leave it behind on acceleration. I think the 172's if they are available would be a much better option with the vestibule connectors intact as longer formations can be easily managed by the guards.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Rosset has always been 60mph unless you mean it isn't increasing to 75mph. To be fair it would not make much difference as most units would never maintain 75 up Gresford bank, most of them can't even maintain 60mph. On average a 3 car 175 at full power will, a 2 car 175 will if it is a good one, 1 out of 10 158's will but I have never had a 150 that does. By the time you get to the A583 bridge an average 158 will be chugging at about 57 and a 150 at around 54mph. From 75mph most units would be well below this.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


170's are reasonable units if they are in par with the 168's but a 175 will leave it behind on acceleration. I think the 172's if they are available would be a much better option with the vestibule connectors intact as longer formations can be easily managed by the guards.

Those "time savings" appear rather elusive don't they?

 

[craigybagel]

It's obvious that Prof. Cole is not familiar with the layout. The maximum speed is 90 apart from a small stretch Between Cardiff and Newport I believe so why use a 125mph unit?

Even Cardiff to Newport is only 95. Apart from Stafford-Wolverhampton (1 train a day each way) there is nowhere on the ATW network that permits 125mph speeds for HST's, although they could probably do 110mph, briefly, between Wilmslow and Manchester every hour if they worked Cardiff-Manchesters.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Even Cardiff to Newport is only 95. Apart from Stafford-Wolverhampton (1 train a day each way) there is nowhere on the ATW network that permits 125mph speeds for HST's, although they could probably do 110mph, briefly, between Wilmslow and Manchester every hour if they worked Cardiff-Manchesters.

110mph Sandbach-Wilmslow is a longer stretch (hourly).
175s can stretch their legs on that at 100mph.
Also 110mph Crewe-Stafford (1 per day).
The short Stechford-Birmingham International 110mph is probably not practical.

 

[craigybagel]

110mph Sandbach-Wilmslow is a longer stretch (hourly).
175s can stretch their legs on that at 100mph.
Also 110mph Crewe-Stafford (1 per day).
The short Stechford-Birmingham International 110mph is probably not practical.

Indeed I meant Crewe-Wilmslow, not Manchester there. Even on a clear run (which is rare) you won't get near 100 north of Wilmslow before you have to slow down again.
I didn't mention Crewe-Stafford because more often than not those services run on the 100mph slow lines.

 

[The Planner]

Can HSTs run at MU speeds? If not then it discounts Stechford Marston Green.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Can HSTs run at MU speeds? If not then it discounts Stechford Marston Green.

Well it's also MU 125 Bushbury-Stafford, and that certainly applies to HSTs (though it's a fair while since one went that way).

 

[The Planner]

Im not so sure about that, unless you go down the argument that HSTs class as Multiple Units. The rule book doesnt specify them as such that I can see.

 

[merlodlliw]

at 3m a year the WAG express Gerald is a complete waste of money and so far it is what 3 years? that is 9m wasted on a service that is not required that could have been put to either improving the infrastructure or supplying 9 class 172 coaches for the upcoming so called improvements. Sorry but the whole thing is a complete shambles and I doubt very much if any paths that come from the current redoubling plan will benefit anyone from the local area.TDK

I totally agree about Gerald, two extra 158 units have had to be drafted in due to it not calling at Gobowen/Chirk/Ruabon on the up ex Wrexham 0745 and similar on the down ex Shrewsbury 1919,to service franchise paths taken by Gerald.
However the WG funding over three years have been,
Capitol account for refurb & hire of Mark 3s,hire in of DVT & class 67 at £700K a year.
Revenue account funding for ATW to run the service, £1M500K a year
Total cost of first three years service via Wrexham as an open access service £six million six hundred thousand.
That money could have improved rail infrastructure around Wrexham that was culled. As it stands we see no paths to benefit anyone in the local area. a total shambles.

 

[Gareth Marston]

What do we know about this scheme?

• It's been scaled back.
• No one can see where any meaningful time savings can accrue from it due to the speed limits over turnouts at 3 locations between Wrexham and Chester.
• Speeding up north to south services is likely to mean a reduced stopping pattern which may impact on services from a number of stations where the current north to south trains act as local services.
• There are no trains to run extra services apart from a suggestion to use HST's displaced by GWML electrification which is still some way off.
• The evidence is that people in Wrexham want direct trains to the North West of England rather than yet more direct trains to North Wales Coast.

 

[merlodlliw]

An opportunity lost, the end result means yet more car journeys to work on the already saturated A483 heading North.
Arriva Bus must be laughing all the way to the bank,as they appear the only means of public transport gaining from this cut back able transport more people to Chester Station for onward travel,

 

[headshot119]

An opportunity lost, the end result means yet more car journeys to work on the already saturated A483 heading North.
Arriva Bus must be laughing all the way to the bank,as they appear the only means of public transport gaining from this cut back able transport more people to Chester Station for onward travel,

Saying the A483 is saturated is a bit of an exaggeration.

However I must say they need to bite the bullet and redouble the lot, all the way back to Wrexham.

 

[merlodlliw]

Saying the A483 is saturated is a bit of an exaggeration.

However I must say they need to bite the bullet and redouble the lot, all the way back to Wrexham.

Ok I meant to imply the A483 (Wrexham Expressway section) between Chirks Halton roundabout to the Post House roundabout Chester is the saturated part,between 0700 and 0930 tail backs from the Post House to beyond Rossett are the norm,similar in the evening approaching the A483 off the A55 from the East.
One vehicle breakdown is all it takes to cause chaos, I appreciate the A483 also runs through Powys/Carmarthen not so highly populated as the North East.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Ok I meant to imply the A483 (Wrexham Expressway section) between Chirks Halton roundabout to the Post House roundabout Chester is the saturated part,between 0700 and 0930 tail backs from the Post House to beyond Rossett are the norm,similar in the evening approaching the A483 off the A55 from the East.
One vehicle breakdown is all it takes to cause chaos, I appreciate the A483 also runs through Powys/Carmarthen not so highly populated as the North East.

Heresy Bob how can their be worse all year round traffic problems on the A483 than around Newtown? We all know courtesy of the Newtown needs a bypass brigade that the Newtown jams are the worst ever ever ever, and when the bypass is built firms will relocate here bringing much prosperity, surely everyone knows that mid wales is neglected at the expense of anywhere that votes Labor!
Newtown TC is spinning and spitting fury at your post as we speak!

 

[merlodlliw]

Heresy Bob how can their be worse all year round traffic problems on the A483 than around Newtown? We all know courtesy of the Newtown needs a bypass brigade that the Newtown jams are the worst ever ever ever, and when the bypass is built firms will relocate here bringing much prosperity, surely everyone knows that mid wales is neglected at the expense of anywhere that votes Labor!
Newtown TC is spinning and spitting fury at your post as we speak!

Im sure the proposed hourly rail service will solve the problem,having as many trains on the main line as Wrexham however I wonder will the Newtown bypass be culled like the rail redouble up here,not a chance has roads take priority with WG.Has for firms moving into Newtown,perhaps the likes of Sainsbury & Walmart, in my opinion.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Im sure the proposed hourly rail service will solve the problem,having as many trains on the main line as Wrexham however I wonder will the Newtown bypass be culled like the rail redouble up here,not a chance has roads take priority with WG.Has for firms moving into Newtown,perhaps the likes of Sainsbury & Walmart, in my opinion.

It still has that caveat of "subject to funds being available " attached to it. I for one will not cry if the monies used to do your re. Double properly or contribute to wiring the valley or start a phase of the Cardiff metro.

 

[merlodlliw]

It still has that caveat of "subject to funds being available " attached to it. I for one will not cry if the monies used to do your re. Double properly or contribute to wiring the valley or start a phase of the Cardiff metro.

The magical words "subject to funds being available" WG know they have not a cats chance in hell of gaining a Labour AM or MP out of this bypass,but are aware the current AM & MP wont keep their mouths shut,unlike Wrexham & Flintshire party AMs & MPs who are told to keep quiet publically about the Wrexham redouble shambles.
Interesting the local health board is now panicking about funding to service the Super Prison and extra facilities required at Wrexham hospital for the prison,which is in contrast to WG burying their heads on the effect of rail travel this 2K inmate jail will have on Wrexham Generals capacity to service the prison for visitors.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Ok I meant to imply the A483 (Wrexham Expressway section) between Chirks Halton roundabout to the Post House roundabout Chester is the saturated part,between 0700 and 0930 tail backs from the Post House to beyond Rossett are the norm,similar in the evening approaching the A483 off the A55 from the East.
One vehicle breakdown is all it takes to cause chaos, I appreciate the A483 also runs through Powys/Carmarthen not so highly populated as the North East.

There was a BBC Wales newsflash last week to the effect that there had been a "head-on crash on the A470 in Powys", with no further details.
That narrowed it right down to a small stretch of a mere 95 miles...

 

[Gareth Marston]

There was a BBC Wales newsflash last week to the effect that there had been a "head-on crash on the A470 in Powys", with no further details.
That narrowed it right down to a small stretch of a mere 95 miles...

It's rare to approach a bend without a white van or convoy of motorcyclicits coming at you head on on the wrong side of the road.

 

[krus_aragon]

It's rare to approach a bend without a white van or convoy of motorcyclicits coming at you head on on the wrong side of the road.

... typically overtaking a caravan!

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

It's rare to approach a bend without a white van or convoy of motorcyclicits coming at you head on on the wrong side of the road.

..so glad I don't have to do this any more! As I've stated previously, the introduction of WG Express made such a difference to the last few years of my working life. A470 used to give me nightmares.

 

[merlodlliw]

..so glad I don't have to do this any more! As I've stated previously, the introduction of WG Express made such a difference to the last few years of my working life. A470 used to give me nightmares.

Pleased to hear someone other than an AM has gained from Gerald,when you next travel by rail between Saltney & Wrexham,lookout for the millions of pink chippings NR have planted ,no ideas when they will flower

Any rail travel that avoids the A470 & A483 must be an improvement on the car,a few years ago I had to go by car to Shrewsbury from Wrexham to get to Cardiff by train,I never fancied the two hour wait on Shrewsbury Station if the train was late into Salop from South Wales,which often occurred.

 

[rich.davies]

And now the Halton curve is being upgraded to hopefully allow direct trains from wrexham etc. At least a bit of good is coming from this.

 

[Wavertreelad]

And now the Halton curve is being upgraded to hopefully allow direct trains from wrexham etc. At least a bit of good is coming from this.

And more perhaps, see the "Halton Curve upgrade is on" thread.

 

[merlodlliw]

BBC news on text are reporting, Direct rail link with Wrexham and Liverpool to be restored.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-28147923

However with the dueling cut back, there don't appear to be any spare paths to run the trains in future.

Unless I am mistaken,the BBC may have got Liverpool mistaken with Birkenhead in the 1970s, anyone recall a direct Liverpool/Wrexham service?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Unless I am mistaken,the BBC may have got Liverpool mistaken with Birkenhead in the 1970s, anyone recall a direct Liverpool/Wrexham service?

Shrewsbury-Wrexham-Chester-Birkenhead (Woodside) through trains finished in 1967.
After that, there was only a 2-hourly shuttle Wolverhampton-Chester (run by RR Central), and a 2tph shuttle Chester-Rock Ferry (run by RR NW).
The few direct trains into Liverpool via Runcorn were run by RR NW from the coast.
I think the first through train from "GWR land" into "LNWR land" around here was the single Cardiff-Crewe-Holyhead run by RR Wales & West from the 1990s.

 

[TDK]

And more perhaps, see the "Halton Curve upgrade is on" thread.

It's all well quoting direct services to Liverpool from Wrexham but if these trains pass through Chester Merseyrail will object on the loss of revenue, Northern will want to run direct trains from Chester and ATW do not as yet have stock to run the service, they didn't have the stock for an extra class 150 on the Bidston line to extend the Birkenhead if I remember correctly. So, is there a plan on how the curve is going to be run and by who? My bet is a service by Northern from Chester.

 

[Gareth]

I still think an extension of the Blackpool North to Liverpool South Parkway would be logical.

 

[edwin_m]

I still think an extension of the Blackpool North to Liverpool South Parkway would be logical.

I'm not going to work back through 32 pages but I think somewhere up there was a mention that this takes up the path that would be used by the Halton Curve train. If this is so then presumably the train from Chester/beyond could be extended up to Blackpool but it would be very indirect, probably mess up the TOC map and involve a long diesel run under the wires.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'm not going to work back through 32 pages but I think somewhere up there was a mention that this takes up the path that would be used by the Halton Curve train. If this is so then presumably the train from Chester/beyond could be extended up to Blackpool but it would be very indirect, probably mess up the TOC map and involve a long diesel run under the wires.

The only Northern diesel routes to interwork with come 2017 will be the Oxford Road stoppers, and the useless E Port-Helsby-Warrington services.
Or indirectly with the mid-Cheshire line at Chester.
There needs to be a solution to the E Port-Helsby problem, which consumes scarce peak-time resource in what will be an isolated location.
An E Port-Liverpool service would achieve none of the Halton Curve's objectives (unless it was wired and run by Merseyrail).