Wrong name on TiL proposed action letter

Status
Not open for further replies.

Ian W

Member
Joined
17 Nov 2019
Messages
5
Location
Bishop Auckland
Hi all,
My daughter recently received a proposed action letter (sufficient evidence does exist....etc etc). 2 queries really,

1. She's only 16, quite upset by it (fully believes she had a valid ticket, as do i and her grandmother she was travelling with, so I'm pretty confident the threatened prosecution won't go ahead), so is it appropriate for me as her father, in the guise of responsible adult, to write a response to them on her behalf?
2. They got her name wrong on this letter. Can I pull ther premiership footballer lawyer defence and tell them we'll respond when they send the correspondence to the correct person?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Darandio

Established Member
Joined
24 Feb 2007
Messages
9,720
Location
Redcar
Before making any comment people will really need more information as outlined here. They can then advise on whether the ticket was valid which will help in the response to your queries and assistance with any response to the company in question.
 

Ian W

Member
Joined
17 Nov 2019
Messages
5
Location
Bishop Auckland
Before making any comment people will really need more information as outlined here. They can then advise on whether the ticket was valid which will help in the response to your queries and assistance with any response to the company in question.
Daughter number 2 and her grandmother were visiting daughter number 1 at her house in sheffield. tickets were purchased on trainline.com. 1 for Senior Citizen using relevant railcard, 1 using 16-25 railcard.
Journey was from Bishop Auckland to Sheffield, tickets open return.
travellers arrived at BA train station,asked at ticket office for tickets, showed ticket office employee booking confirmation, were told that paper tickets not necessary as they had an e-ticket. Boarded train from BA to Darlington, tickets checked by inspector on train, no problems raised. Change at darlington, boarded train to sheffield.
Ticket inspector asked fortickets, showed e-ticket, said daughters ticket wasnt registering as valid, no comment made about her grandmothers. Note both tickets bought and paid for on same booking with same booking ref. Conversation ensued; ticket inspector couldnt understand why tickets were valid for first part of journey, and why the seat reservation still showed as valid. She also checked the return part of the ticket, which she confirmed was valid, but said that her syatem showed that the ricket had been "cancelled 30 minutes after being issued".
Ticket inspector issued a replacement ticket with a zero value showing, to provide a valid paper ticket for remainder of journey, and took my daughters name and address, confirmed with daughters railcard. Daughter thought this was a receipt for the paper tickets issued. At no point did ticket inspector ask for payment for these tickets, or mention prosecution / penalty notice / additional ticket cost. Journey continued without further incident, and return part also used without incident, until on Friday, daughter phoned me in tears as she had received a letter notifying her of the potential prosecution under various parts of thr Railway Byelaws and Regulation of Railways Act 1889. I suspect the letter is a standard one, the details / content of which many of will be all too familiar with......
Note the letter was in the name of Miss R E Watson. This isnt her surname but is close.......
The other person travelling with her did not get asked for her details (presumably because her ticket was deemed valid......).
So i suppose my question is now 3 fold;
1. Is it appropriate for me as her father and responsiblr adult to respod on her bahalf given she is only 16 and not used to this type of thing?
2. Is it important that they have transcribed her name wrongly onto their snotty letter production module?
3. I assume the best way is to send as much evidence as we have to disprove their theory..........
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
55,110
Location
Yorkshire
This sounds concerning but I would need to know full details before being able to advise further.
 

Ian W

Member
Joined
17 Nov 2019
Messages
5
Location
Bishop Auckland
This sounds concerning but I would need to know full details before being able to advise further.
Thats about it; the tickets were inspected on the first part of the journey, the return part was checked and ok. All parts for one of the two passengers was ok. no mention of an excess / penalty etc, just the usual standard snotogram from TiL 6 weeks later. i have to speak to my company's solicitor on another matter tomorrow, so mught seek a bit of off the record advice from her......
Anywy, what other details would you need to know before giving advice.....
 

WesternLancer

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
3,622
Thats about it; the tickets were inspected on the first part of the journey, the return part was checked and ok. All parts for one of the two passengers was ok. no mention of an excess / penalty etc, just the usual standard snotogram from TiL 6 weeks later. i have to speak to my company's solicitor on another matter tomorrow, so mught seek a bit of off the record advice from her......
Anywy, what other details would you need to know before giving advice.....
ref one orig point, I would not suggest trying the 'footballers defence' that as they have spelt name wrong it's not valid. U could leave that to if it gets to court, which it prob will not. At this stage try to engage with them.

Track the payment payment record to see if the fare 'refunded' or part refunded really was refunded etc.

Use the website BRfares.com to check the correct price and test that against price paid to compare (ask if you are not sure which fare on that site it may have been).

Keep all papers, tell your daughter not to worry (suspect you have already done that!)

If you wish to act for your daughter and are not sure if you can, get her to sign a letter of authority (one that also states her age / date of birth for good measure).

Hope that helps at this stage.
 

Brissle Girl

Established Member
Joined
17 Jul 2018
Messages
1,149
If the return part of the ticket was checked as valid then I can’t see how it could have been cancelled as previously asserted, and this should probably be helpful in terms of evidence. Presumably they can’t point to a refund being made, as I’m sure one wasn’t from what you describe.

Hopefully your daughter or her grandmother still have the booking details, (eg email confirmation and booking reference)?

It strikes me that a very clearly set out letter, explaining the train of events, should be sufficient. Unfortunately, it may be that the first response is to ignore, as that seems to be the way, but to follow that up and not take no for an answer.

It doesn’t sound as though, provided you have the evidence, that they have a case, and I suspect it would be dropped on the steps of the court, though obviously you would not wish your daughter to go through that stress.
 

Ian W

Member
Joined
17 Nov 2019
Messages
5
Location
Bishop Auckland
If the return part of the ticket was checked as valid then I can’t see how it could have been cancelled as previously asserted, and this should probably be helpful in terms of evidence. Presumably they can’t point to a refund being made, as I’m sure one wasn’t from what you describe.

Hopefully your daughter or her grandmother still have the booking details, (eg email confirmation and booking reference)?

It strikes me that a very clearly set out letter, explaining the train of events, should be sufficient. Unfortunately, it may be that the first response is to ignore, as that seems to be the way, but to follow that up and not take no for an answer.

It doesn’t sound as though, provided you have the evidence, that they have a case, and I suspect it would be dropped on the steps of the court, though obviously you would not wish your daughter to go through that stress.


We have all the documents, no refund was made, everything else checked out ok. And notwithstanding the return ticket; the first part of the journey went without incident, including ticket checking........and all parts of the ticketing for the other passenger on the same booking went through fine.

Also, I noted on a different thread on here.
There is a known problem with some tickets that are valid for more than one day but can be displayed incorrectly as invalid due to a problem with the software.
I suspect this is because if different \toc's have different T's & C's, it will be v difficult to get one ticket checking software to cover everything reliably.

Thanks for replies everyone - i've done the decent thing and written a long bullet pointy style letter setting out our case, and deleted all the arsey snotogram comments i put in the original. It made me feel better writing them, but i suspect wont do any good if i send them!
 
Last edited by a moderator:

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
55,110
Location
Yorkshire
Which retailer did you use? Have you contacted the retailer?

What was the date of travel? and can you confirm the exact ticket type and price paid?
 

Ian W

Member
Joined
17 Nov 2019
Messages
5
Location
Bishop Auckland
Which retailer did you use? Have you contacted the retailer?

What was the date of travel? and can you confirm the exact ticket type and price paid?
Trainline, booked and paid for 24th Sept.
Outward Travel on 4th oct, return valid up to 3rd Nov.
1 x open return with 16-25 railcard
1 x open return with senior railcard
We have all the receipts and record of payment. copies of everthing being sent to TiL.

I shall report back with any reaction / results!
 

WesternLancer

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
3,622
Trainline, booked and paid for 24th Sept.
Outward Travel on 4th oct, return valid up to 3rd Nov.
1 x open return with 16-25 railcard
1 x open return with senior railcard
We have all the receipts and record of payment. copies of everthing being sent to TiL.

I shall report back with any reaction / results!

As a general rule don't use Trainline to buy tickets (several reasons but key one is they are 3rd party so any dispute on the train the train staff can blame them etc, and they will not be part of the ability to help solve the problem either I suspect) - best to use a train company ticket selling site that is the company for which you are travelling the most of the trip on I would say - in this case Cross Country site, but Norther would be the second option.

Checking here:

http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=BIA&dest=SHF

An 'open rtn' isnt really a type of ticket - but I know what you mean so suspect it was either (if in std class)

An Anytime Return: £85.85
or
An Off Peak Rtn: £55.40

Bishop Auckland to Sheffield and back.

For the railcard holders take 34% off that figure.

Does this figure (or one of them) tally with the sum paid / debited. for grandmother and your daughter?

Hope next stage of your efforts goes OK.
 
Last edited:

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
11,786
Location
Airedale
Slightly puzzled by this:
...arrived at BA train station,asked at ticket office for tickets, showed ticket office employee booking confirmation, were told that paper tickets not necessary as they had an e-ticket.

Did they in fact have an e-ticket?
If so, why were they trying to collect paper tickets (Ticket on Departure via a collection code?) - was it that they didn't understand the system?

May not be vital, but perhaps you could upload redacted scans?
 

Haywain

Established Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
6,333
Slightly puzzled by this:


Did they in fact have an e-ticket?
If so, why were they trying to collect paper tickets (Ticket on Departure via a collection code?) - was it that they didn't understand the system?
People rock up to ticket office counters every day asking to collect the tickets they’ve bought online without realising they’ve bought e-tickets, it is far from unusual.
 

reb0118

Established Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
28 Jan 2010
Messages
2,942
Location
Bo'ness, West Lothian
I take this to be three separate but related issues:-

1) There has been a "problem" with the outward ticket of your daughter's. This was not picked up on the first train as Northern (I think?) only perform a visual check of the ticket - so it only has to "look" correct.

On board the second train (the "long distance" element of the journey) a more robust check of the ticket takes place. This involves a scan of the ticket. It was this scan that revealed the "issue" or "problem" of the previous cancellation of the outward leg (NB notwithstanding the above: are Northern guards issued with scanners? If so could the actions, correct or otherwise, of a guard on a previous train invalidate a e-ticket? ).

2) Not fully understanding the reasons for the invalidation the second guard has given the passenger the benefit of the doubt by not charging for a new ticket. However, she has covered all bases by issuing an Unpaid Fares Notice [UFN] just in case there was an attempt to defraud. This UFN is an invoice that is legally enforceable. The passenger should then be told that they have x amount of days to contact customer services to sort the matter out - emphasising the fact that the UFN is a legally enforceable debt and if nothing is done about it it doesn't "just disappear". The ball is now in the passenger's court.

3) Not fully understanding that this was a matter still to be resolved your daughter has taken no further action. As the invoice has not been paid or cancelled it is escalated to enforcement. Generally speaking a letter should be sent to offer a further chance to settle but this does not have to be the case. I suspect that a letter* has in fact been sent but due to a confusion with regard to the details given it has potentially gone astray. AFAIAA the company is concerned there has now been at least two instances of ignoring the invoice so the matter is escalated further to prosecution. *NB is this letter you have received merely asking for your side of the story with the threat of prosecution if ignored OR actually informing you that your daughter IS being summoned?

I could be wrong but I suspect that this is maybe broadly what happened.
 
Last edited:

ukkid

Member
Joined
25 Apr 2016
Messages
68
It appears they are treating the daughter as adult. Would they really take a 16 year old to youth court over this, particularly one under the custody of an adult at the time?

Are they writing to your daughter directly and do they recognise she is a child or include her date of birth.

There is nothing wrong with you writing to them as ber parent/guardian, its as it should be. You should also point out she was under the custody of another adult that day, whose details you don't have to provide
 

WesternLancer

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
3,622
Reb0118 provides a very probable explanation of events, does the OP think this is plausible having spoken to daughter and grandmother - both of whom have no reason to not tell the truth - but of course very plausibly may have not understood what gaurd at XC was doing / gaurd did not fully explain possible outcomes of papers issued on the XC train.

Knowing what money was paid (and if any 'refund' later credited even if by accident it was claimed) would help resolve cause of problem perhaps.
 

Haywain

Established Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
6,333
You should also point out she was under the custody of another adult that day, whose details you don't have to provide
What is the relevance of that? 16 year-olds are allowed to travel and are considered as adults for most purposes, they do not have to be in "the custody of" an adult.
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
24,763
Location
Scotland
If so could the actions, correct or otherwise, of a guard on a previous train invalidate a e-ticket?
I don't think so. However, does the fact that the ticket office said that they should board and that the first guard inspected the ticket and didn't query anything mean that they were given permission by an authorised person?
Not fully understanding the reasons for the invalidation the second guard has given the passenger the benefit of the doubt by not charging for a new ticket. However, she has covered all bases by issuing an Unpaid Fares Notice [UFN] just in case there was an attempt to defraud. This UFN is an invoice that is legally enforceable. The passenger should then be told that they have x amount of days to contact customer services to sort the matter out - emphasising the fact that the UFN is a legally enforceable debt and if nothing is done about it it doesn't "just disappear". The ball is now in the passenger's court.
It would be useful to see the "ticket" that was issued on the train to confirm this.
 

ukkid

Member
Joined
25 Apr 2016
Messages
68
What is the relevance of that? 16 year-olds are allowed to travel and are considered as adults for most purposes, they do not have to be in "the custody of" an adult.

This is not a scenario where she was travelling independently and making her own ticketing decisions with whatever funds given, which of course many her own age and younger do in a daily basis on public transport. For prosecution purposes it does have relevance.

This girl was in the custody of an adult who was responsible for her, likely bought her ticket (or other guardian), and was her final decision maker for her ticketing and travel thay day.
A hypothetical example, a parent travelling cross country with their 16 year old of no independent means, buys them the wrong ticket and refuses to later regularise the travel. Do the TOC prosecute the 16 year old?
I'm not saying the 16 year old is thoroughly absolved of responsibility, can do whatever their guardian tells them to do and I know what the crimininal age of responsibility is. However it is not a clear cut prosecution either.
A few years ago the RSPCA attempted to prosecute a father and his 15 year old daughter for not getting a sick animal to a vet in time. Her case was thrown out, it was not reasonable to expect the daughter could disobey her father and take the animal to the vet nor have the means to do so.
 

Llanigraham

On Moderation
Joined
23 Mar 2013
Messages
5,205
Location
Powys
This is not a scenario where she was travelling independently and making her own ticketing decisions with whatever funds given, which of course many her own age and younger do in a daily basis on public transport. For prosecution purposes it does have relevance.

This girl was in the custody of an adult who was responsible for her, likely bought her ticket (or other guardian), and was her final decision maker for her ticketing and travel thay day.
A hypothetical example, a parent travelling cross country with their 16 year old of no independent means, buys them the wrong ticket and refuses to later regularise the travel. Do the TOC prosecute the 16 year old?
I'm not saying the 16 year old is thoroughly absolved of responsibility, can do whatever their guardian tells them to do and I know what the crimininal age of responsibility is. However it is not a clear cut prosecution either.
A few years ago the RSPCA attempted to prosecute a father and his 15 year old daughter for not getting a sick animal to a vet in time. Her case was thrown out, it was not reasonable to expect the daughter could disobey her father and take the animal to the vet nor have the means to do so.

The other adult travelling may be socially responsible for the 16 year old, but I am very doubtful they are legally, as she is over 16.

And your last paragraph is in no way comparable to this case.
 

221129

Established Member
Joined
21 Mar 2011
Messages
6,328
Location
Sunny Scotland
2) Not fully understanding the reasons for the invalidation the second guard has given the passenger the benefit of the doubt by not charging for a new ticket. However, she has covered all bases by issuing an Unpaid Fares Notice [UFN] just in case there was an attempt to defraud. This UFN is an invoice that is legally enforceable. The passenger should then be told that they have x amount of days to contact customer services to sort the matter out - emphasising the fact that the UFN is a legally enforceable debt and if nothing is done about it it doesn't "just disappear". The ball is now in the passenger's court
There was no UFN. It was a TIR which would be the correct procedure from the Train Manager.
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
11,619
Location
Isle of Man
Clearly TIL have failed to do any investigation before sending the threats with menaces. I doubt they've made even the slightest look into whether the ticket was valid or whether Arriva's shonky IT continues to be shonky.

Good luck to the OP.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
11,786
Location
Airedale
Clearly TIL have failed to do any investigation before sending the threats with menaces. I doubt they've made even the slightest look into whether the ticket was valid or whether Arriva's shonky IT continues to be shonky.
A TIR was issued.
The recipient may have failed to take required action.
TIL have followed up, threatening prosecution and (I assume) asking for an explanation.
I don't think they are equipped to investigate supposed IT issues.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Fare-Cop

Member
Joined
5 Aug 2010
Messages
950
Location
England
A TIR was issued.
The recipient may have failed to take required action.
TIL have followed up, threatening prosecution and (I assume) asking for an explanation.
I don't think they are equipped to investigate supposed IT issues.

In my experience, any 'supposed IT issue' will normally be investigated by the TOC jointly with whichever issuing merchant is involved and the TOCs recovery / prosecuting agents will then be advised accordingly.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
55,110
Location
Yorkshire
@Ian W have you contacted Trainline for assistance?
As a general rule don't use Trainline to buy tickets (several reasons but key one is they are 3rd party so any dispute on the train the train staff can blame them etc, and they will not be part of the ability to help solve the problem either I suspect) - best to use a train company ticket selling site that is the company for which you are travelling the most of the trip on I would say - in this case Cross Country site, but Norther would be the second option.
I don't agree with this and have replied here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...oc-retailers-or-third-party-retailers.195508/
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top