Wrong route given: what action is required?

[tom73]

If the driver of a northbound LNER service heading for Newcastle, having departed from Doncaster, realized his train had been directed onto the Wakefield/Leeds line, what course of action would be required?

 

[yorkie]

If the driver of a northbound LNER service heading for Newcastle, having departed from Doncaster, realized his train had been directed onto the Wakefield/Leeds line, what course of action would be required?

That would surely depend on many factors such as exactly when they realised it wasn't correct, whether the crew sign the route, and the train type, and potentially what other trains are in the area at the time.

A XC train was wrongly routed via Doncaster a few months ago, the driver accepted the route, but the train had to reverse because the guard didn't sign the route (the driver did).

In any case the initial action would be to contact the signaller once this was realised.

If the route hasn't been taken the signal can be set back.

 

[Right Away]

Where the signalling tells the driver that the incorrect route has been set (ie locations with flashing yellows, preliminary route indicators, or approach release from red) the driver is expected to stop before the signal protecting the junction and query the route by contacting the signaller. If the route is accepted by the driver, the delay will be split 50/50 between the signaller and driver. At locations where the route set isn't identified to the driver in advance (such as Cogload Junction near Taunton) the driver should stop the train immediately on sighting the incorrect route displayed on the signal protecting the junction. Even if the signal is passed, the delay will be entirely attributed to the signaller as long as the driver reacted immediately. The signaller will usually give the driver permission to set back behind the signal so that the correct route can be set.

 

[bnm]

And I've had just that happen to me as a passenger on a Bristol bound DMU at Cogload. Some years ago now.

We did indeed reverse back before heading on our way.

 

[trebor79]

Had it happen to me on a XC years ago. Was diverted due to engineering and wasn't calling at either Doncaster or Leeds but we were given the road to Doncaster south of York. Emergency brake application and we set back to take the Leeds road and later off via some very secondary routes, we passed lots of freight yards and a loco shed sure I'm not sure which way we actually went.
Guard announced what had happened when we first came to a halt and explained he needed to get out of the train to help the driver reverse over the junction. He sounded quite excited by it all.

 

[bionic]

Drivers get offered wrong 'uns fairly often. The driver will be in bother if they take it. The responses of signallers can vary massively from profusely apologising to getting shirty with the driver. Some places there's no wrong route. For example a set of empties or a fast can take any route as long as they can get to the next booked calling point that way.

 

[Intermodal]

Some places there's no wrong route. For example a set of empties or a fast can take any route as long as they can get to the next booked calling point that way.

Although it's worth noting the signaller will probably regret sending a freight up the fast line, even if it's not technically a wrong route!

 

[rd749249]

Get wrong routes on short notice empties all the time. It ceases to amaze me how many times signallers and my control fail talk before the move commences. Usually the signaller sites a wrong headcode and says something like ‘oh I thought you were going here, or there. Nobody tells me anything etc etc’. As a driver, it’s crucial to know your route and last point of entry to a yard which obviously includes your last crossover point. I always anticipate a wrong route in these instances.

 

[Mintona]

I had a signaller call me a couple of weeks ago to give me instructions on what to do when I got to the depot. The problem was, I wasn’t going to the depot he thought I was, so it was lucky he called otherwise I may well have been wrong routed.

I’ve been offered wrong routes a few times, managed not to take one just yet. A couple of months ago I was given one at a junction mentioned above, but I had pre-empted it as the train was being diverted from one route to the other and slowed down on approach so was able to stop in time. The signaller hadn’t been told of the alteration. I only sign one of the routes so it was just as well really that I was able to stop in time!

I remember from my time in Kent that fast trains from Bromley South to Victoria are able to be routed via Beckenham Jn or Catford, without the driver having to query the route.

 

[jfollows]

There are a few locations, such as (I believe) Hanslope Junction and Colwich Junction on the WCML where the Sectional Appendix instructs drivers to take the "wrong" route without query. These instances are very much the exception, however.

 

[bionic]

I remember from my time in Kent that fast trains from Bromley South to Victoria are able to be routed via Beckenham Jn or Catford, without the driver having to query the route.

Yes. It's the same story on SE for any of the three routes to Dartford on empties, fast trains via Lewisham and empties from Orpington to Charing x / Cannon Street via the mid Kent.

 

[westcoaster]

There are a few locations, such as (I believe) Hanslope Junction and Colwich Junction on the WCML where the Sectional Appendix instructs drivers to take the "wrong" route without query. These instances are very much the exception, however.

Indeed lots like that, via redhill is one on the Brighton mainline. And also Blackfriars to Bromley south we can go both ways without questioning it.

 

[westcoaster]

Indeed lots like that, via redhill is one on the Brighton mainline. And also Blackfriars to Bromley south we can go both ways without questioning it.

I've had lots over the years, especially in South London with the myriad of different diversion routes available.

 

[ComUtoR]

Yes. It's the same story on SE for any of the three routes to Dartford on empties, fast trains via Lewisham and empties from Orpington to Charing x / Cannon Street via the mid Kent.

I don't have the Sectional Appendix to hand but is that correct ?

ECS from Orpington will have a distinguishable headcode so you would challenge that route and there is a question of timings. Via the Mid Kent is a drama and takes forever. If I was routed that way I would 100% challenge. You would also need to challenge the route from Ladywell due to the new layout. I was sent up diverted a few weeks back and very much considered where I was sent at Ladywell for Cannon Street.

Dartfords not so much, but it causes problems when routed off your booked route. Again, timings are key here. We used to have the booked route on your diagram but not all depots print it out but I would challenge it if known.

Fast from Lewisham ? To where, down or up direction ?

Cheers in advance.

 

[Kneedown]

Some places there's no wrong route. For example a set of empties or a fast can take any route

Not the case nowadays i'm afraid. I got moaned at a few months ago for taking an ECS via Toton instead of Radford. Best to stick to the letter of the diagram, even if it does mean causing delay with stopping, waiting for routes to time out etc.

 

[bionic]

I don't have the Sectional Appendix to hand but is that correct ?

I don't mean in the sectional appendix, it's just common sense.

Brixton junction to Shortlands junction for fasts via Catford or Herne Hill and fasts between London Bridge and Orpington going via Lewisham or Parks Bridge were both in the sectional appendix last time I looked though.

ECS from Orpington will have a distinguishable headcode so you would challenge that route and there is a question of timings. Via the Mid Kent is a drama and takes forever. If I was routed that way I would 100% challenge. You would also need to challenge the route from Ladywell due to the new layout. I was sent up diverted a few weeks back and very much considered where I was sent at Ladywell for Cannon Street.

The letter on the headcode might imply a set of empties is booked via the mid kent rather than the main but the diagram won't necessary say which way it is booked. I've certainly never known a driver get in bother for going from A to B if there's no via point explicitly written on their diagram. I would also suggest that the letter in a headcode, while giving an idea, does not mean a train MUST run betweej two points via certain route.

As far as I'm aware there is a local instruction regarding last crossovers for cannon street or Charing cross. So while ladywell to cannon street via parks bridge is doable, drivers have been told to challenge these kind of routes.

Challenging kosher routes that aren't specifically marked on the diagram, and aren't subject to a local instruction - such as via the main or the mid Kent - is a huge can of worms. Where do you stop with it? Imagine if everyone challenged the signaller every time they got sent to a different part of Grove Park yard than the one marked on their diagram? The same goes for challenging platforms. If you were booked into platform 6 at Charing cross you wouldn't challenge a route into platform 5. If the company don't want a driver to apply a bit of common sense they need to specifically name the booked route on the diagram.

Dartfords not so much, but it causes problems when routed off your booked route. Again, timings are key here. We used to have the booked route on your diagram but not all depots print it out but I would challenge it if known

Only problem with the Dartfords might be if you end up coming into Slade Green facing the wrong way for a relief. Last time I checked there was no instruction for a driver to read more into the diagram than is printed on it by going through the timings with a fine toothcomb. Many of the timings on SE are pure fiction anyway. For example 2 minutes between departing Lewisham and departing Blackheath for some Bexleyheath line services when it's always 20mph out of Lewisham and you'll always come into Blackheath with a red on the end? Can't be done.

 

[bionic]

Not the case nowadays i'm afraid. I got moaned at a few months ago for taking an ECS via Toton instead of Radford. Best to stick to the letter of the diagram, even if it does mean causing delay with stopping, waiting for routes to time out etc.

I've never known that to happen myself and never been instructed differently. Might be a TOC thing? Indeed, as mentioned above, some are specifically listed in the sectional appendix.

 

[ComUtoR]

I don't mean in the sectional appendix, it's just common sense.

I would challenge it every time if I knew which way it was booked. The 3 routes are timed differently. Generally we know which way we are going. Either from previously running the diagram, using the headcode, checking the timings or simply reading the diagram (if stated)

fasts between London Bridge and Orpington going via Lewisham or Parks Bridge were both in the sectional appendix last time I looked though.

Just had a look through (such a !""£$"$ publication) and it's from St Johns to Hither Green which makes sense but if you were coming down from the Cross and got sent via 233 signal and up the flyover I would 100% challenge it. It's a stupid move for no real reason and would impact your time and if you were sent restrictive then you may end up stopping in the platform at Lewisham. It does happen but I'd challenge it.

The letter on the headcode might imply a set of empties is booked via the mid kent rather than the main but the diagram won't necessary say which way it is booked. I've certainly never known a driver get in bother for going from A to B if there's no via point explicitly written on their diagram.

I've know a few to have had a quiet word in their shell like but yeah its a bit of a get out clause that you do not know your routing. I think its my depot that drives most of those and you know (from the headcode) your routed via the Mid Kent but if you were timed up the main I don't know anyone who would challenge at AD34 if they were ECS to the Cross. What I wouldn't do is challenge it if I was sent up the main.

As far as I'm aware there is a local instruction regarding last crossovers for cannon street or Charing cross. So while ladywell to cannon street via parks bridge is doable, drivers have been told to challenge these kind of routes.

Yep, possible but stupid

Challenging kosher routes that aren't specifically marked on the diagram, and aren't subject to a local instruction - such as via the main or the mid Kent - is a huge can of worms.

Same with your previous comment. I have never heard of anyone being pulled up for it. It's more the case of being encouraged. Far better to challenge something and be wrong than not challenge and get caught out.

Where do you stop with it? Imagine if everyone challenged the signaller every time they got sent to a different part of Grove Park yard than the one marked on their diagram?

This actually happened on a regular basis and happened at Slade Green too. There were diagramming issues that were eventually resolved purely because Drivers challenged where they were sent into the sidings.

The same goes for challenging platforms. If you were booked into platform 6 at Charing cross you wouldn't challenge a route into platform 5. If the company don't want a driver to apply a bit of common sense they need to specifically name the booked route on the diagram.

We don't get booked platforms on out diagrams. However, you would challenge platform length and potentially challenge permissive working.

Only problem with the Dartfords might be if you end up coming into Slade Green facing the wrong way for a relief.

Kinda comes back to that common sense. If I was ECS to Dartford then there is less of an issue (unless your being buggered about with) but if you were going via any of the loops then it is a more serious issue. We had a Driver who accepted a route and ended up facing the wrong way at Barnehurst and needed to shunt back. Whilst he wasn't disciplined in any way, there were a few polite words.

I find that you can have a good relationship with the Signaller when you challenge routes because there are many times where they go .. "Cheers Drive..." More often than not it's a call that takes a few seconds and is part of the ethos of us working together. When running as ECS it's also helpful because it reduces incidents. The box will often call up and tell you that they are sending you via the North Kent due to problems on the Loop. You then never challenge the rest of the route, know why your late, understand your gonna get dumped behind a passenger service, will probably run restrictive etc. The other issue is that by not telling people to challenge when they feel something is amiss then you are encouraging wrong routes etc as people then tend to never challenge regardless. It was even encouraged on the NTS course too. If in doubt, stop.

Last time I checked there was no instruction for a driver to read more into the diagram than is printed on it by going through the timings with a fine toothcomb. Many of the timings on SE are pure fiction anyway. For example 2 minutes between departing Lewisham and departing Blackheath for some Bexleyheath line services when it's always 20mph out of Lewisham and you'll always come into Blackheath with a red on the end? Can't be done.

Don't get me started ....

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

Trains on the Western Route heading north towards Oxford can accept two routings from Didcot East Junction without query (however it’ll be some heavy braking to get a Fast Oxford down from 70 to 40):
Either through the Didcot Avoiders
or
Through Didcot Parkway and Chester Line Junction.

But by far the worst junctions for wrong routes in my area are Wokingham Junction and Southcote Junction.

At Wokingham Junction, you can easily glance over the feather at Wokingham, especially on a non-stop (30mph) and the braking distance being insufficient!

SWR happened to take a wrong route on the Up Blackwater a couple of months ago, caused havoc as the collector shoes had to be manually clipped up as the limit of electrification is just abeam the signal box.

Southcote on the Down Westbury has a fast approach (60mph/50mph diverging) with no preliminary indicator; no indication of a wrong route until you’re within sighting distance of T2815. However, Oxford Road Junction in the Up direction has a preliminary indicator, presumably to give the freights time to brake if wrong routed.

 

[Kneedown]

I've never known that to happen myself and never been instructed differently. Might be a TOC thing?

Maybe a case of "Franchise end approaching, must show how important I am!" among management. Even the DM who spoke to me admitted he'd have done exactly the same as me.

 

[big all]

years ago on wimbledon to victoria via streatham junction stopped on a green 2 signals back from the juction why you ask_______
because green is via streatham and by stopping 2 signals back no time delay as he can replace the signal and set up the route
other tricks west croydon to victoria platform 1 norwood juction at a green signal
"heeelllooo signalman west croydon to victoria waiting patiently in platform 1"
"eeehh hang for a min drive"
all conversations are recorded and we are all human this allowed the signalman to return the signal to danger and set the route up correctly without anyone being any the wiser

 

[Eccles1983]

Good stuff.

I will never blatantly point out the wrong route, just drop subtle hints.

Me : hello signaller X box I am the driver or 2k62 heading towards X at mp645....

Sig: send message

Me: hello signaller X box I am the driver or 2k62 HEADING towards X at mp645..

Sig : received, await signal.....

No need for big songs and dances, and normally a message waiting for you when you get back thanking you.

 

[big all]

thats modern tecno
i am talking 455 around around 1990 ??

 

[ArchieWoodbine]

Interestingly, on the first day of the new four-track railway through Filton this Monday, my train was wrong-routed. We were due to stop at intermediary stations towards Bristol Temple Meads, but were routed onto the new fast lines which bypass these. The driver stopped short of the signal and the route was reset after about five minutes.

I can't imagine the signaller got too much stick for it though, given it was the first day of a completely new track layout!

 

[Dieseldriver]

Interestingly, on the first day of the new four-track railway through Filton this Monday, my train was wrong-routed. We were due to stop at intermediary stations towards Bristol Temple Meads, but were routed onto the new fast lines which bypass these. The driver stopped short of the signal and the route was reset after about five minutes.

I can't imagine the signaller got too much stick for it though, given it was the first day of a completely new track layout!

Your Driver would have got plenty of 'stick' for it had they accepted it though... First day of new layout or not...

 

[Bantamzen]

This happened on the Wharfe line just last week. Due to some late running crew, the 05:50 Ilkley-Bradford FS (2D29) was delayed long enough for the 06:02 Ilkley-Leeds (2V01) to depart before it. However, for some reason the system didn't update properly and showed 2D29 for Bradford as departing first when it was actually 2V01 for Leeds. This not only confused the signals when it arrived at Guiseley junction, being offered the switch onto the Baildon branch, but also meant the CIS weren't updated leading to a lot of confusion for passengers and further delays to both services. The driver of 2V01 didn't accept the obviously incorrect path, leading to a further delay still for it and subsequent services behind whist the right path towards Apperley Junction was set.