Wrong Route

[dk1]

GSMR has helped a bit as you can advise the signaller quick rather than stopping & using the SPT (non CRS areas) so hopefully the route can be taken back & changed with little or no delay & nobody needs to know.

 

[edwin_m]

GSMR has helped a bit as you can advise the signaller quick rather than stopping & using the SPT (non CRS areas) so hopefully the route can be taken back & changed with little or no delay & nobody needs to know.

If you aren't able to stop and use the SPT then presumably you've passed the signal and a wrong direction move will be needed. Either way, with recording of signaller acctions and GSMR conversations I think the days of "nobody needs to know" are long gone.

 

[Tomnick]

Presumably he means using the GSM-R as soon as it's apparent that the route's wrong, a signal or two back, usually allowing the error to be put right with little or no delay. Stopping to use the SPT would stick a good three or four minutes into the job, which benefits no-one. If it doesn't generate a delay in TRUST... .

Note that I'm neither advocating 'lift, sweep, drop', nor speaking from personal experience!

 

[GB]

If you aren't able to stop and use the SPT then presumably you've passed the signal and a wrong direction move will be needed.

Not at all. There are places you will know you have been wrong routed by the signal aspects you receive before the junction signal. Get a green instead of a double or single yellow for example.

Either way, with recording of signaller acctions and GSMR conversations I think the days of "nobody needs to know" are long gone.

The conversation may get recorded, but it doesn't necessarily mean its reported. Providing no delay flags up then management are generally none the wiser.

 

[dk1]

If you aren't able to stop and use the SPT then presumably you've passed the signal and a wrong direction move will be needed. Either way, with recording of signaller acctions and GSMR conversations I think the days of "nobody needs to know" are long gone.

I wouldn't always say it has. Various things happen & I only report if I really have to.

 

[Tomnick]

Always appreciated . As GB says, if it's all handled safely and without delay, what is there to report?

 

[edwin_m]

If the records were downloaded for an unrelated incident or a random check, I think the bricks would drop on the people concerned from a far greater height than if the incident had been reported at the time.

 

[Tomnick]

I'm not convinced - it's not a safety of the line issue (possibly excepting cases where the train in question was barred from the route in question, pulling off for an electric train into an isolated section etc.) so if there's no delay to explain, there's not much to report!

 

[Poolie]

There is a story linked to on the London Reconnections blog that a Metropolitan line signaller made an error that was compounded by a BR driver who wasnt that sure of the route

The result was the Master Cutler - an ER Pacific and a full rake of Pullmans - taking a left at Croxley Hall, going thru Croxley and arriving at Watford Metropolitan with a pretty abrupt stop.

....and having to be reversed wrong-line to Rickmansworth as though Watford had adequate run-round, nobody would have thanked LU for sending a pacific into Marylebone facing the wrong way round

Wow! That's an amazing story. Was there anything in any railway periodicals at the time I wonder?

 

[DXMachina]

Wow! That's an amazing story. Was there anything in any railway periodicals at the time I wonder?

This is all I've got - although someone's started a thread about it on District Dave's forums after seeing my posting here. I saw it via a link on this page of London Reconnections

It would have been in or prior to 1958 if that helps.

 

[A-driver]

I'm not convinced - it's not a safety of the line issue (possibly excepting cases where the train in question was barred from the route in question, pulling off for an electric train into an isolated section etc.) so if there's no delay to explain, there's not much to report!

I've been wrong routed numerous times. Never taken one though and never reported one either. I see no need to take the time to volunteer a report and drop a colleague in it.

Saying that, I will never lie or try to cover it up and if I'm asked about a delay or asked about a wrong route I will of course tell the truth but would never go out of my way to report such a thing.

Obviously if a wrong route is taken you would have no chance of hiding it and would be very, very stupid not to report it as a signaller or driver. Infact, it would probably be all over twitter before you have even finished the radio conversation with the signaller!

There are different degrees of wrong routing. Obvious ones at junctions are less likely to be taken all though not impossible. The majority where I based seem to be where you take a set of points and only realise the effect of the wrong route later in the journey...leaving kings cross on the down fast and remaining down fast through belle isle junction and holloway junction and approaching Finsbury park before realising you are empty to Hornsey or stopping at harringay...holloway is the last place you can be turned in until wood green.

 

[D1009]

I'm sure wrong routes were and possibly still are taken without being reported under absolute block signalling and manual train reporting.

 

[A-driver]

I'm sure wrong routes were and possibly still are taken without being reported under absolute block signalling and manual train reporting.

Depends what you mean by 'taken'. You would be very stupid as a driver not to report it if you have to run the train back over the points. An OTMR download would pick up on it.

 

[D1009]

Depends what you mean by 'taken'. You would be very stupid as a driver not to report it if you have to run the train back over the points. An OTMR download would pick up on it.

Agreed, I was trying to highlight the difference with manually signalled sections which are not monitored by systems like CCF, and TRUST reporting is done manually. It must therefore easier for driver and signaller to come to an "agreement". I agree about OTMR, but presumably even this isn't downloaded without reason?

 

[Tomnick]

Agreed, I was trying to highlight the difference with manually signalled sections which are not monitored by systems like CCF, and TRUST reporting is done manually. It must therefore easier for driver and signaller to come to an "agreement". I agree about OTMR, but presumably even this isn't downloaded without reason?

If the driver's taken the wrong route, I doubt the resulting delay would go unnoticed (unless the train was very early with nothing following!) and uninvestigated, by the time arrangements have been made to shove back outside the junction signal...even with the most creative TRUST reporting!

 

[TOCDriver]

A driver with an excellent route knowledge would never take a wrong route in the first instance. You should know your signal patterns like the back of your hand and your driving should always reflect that.

 

[infobleep]

If the driver's taken the wrong route, I doubt the resulting delay would go unnoticed (unless the train was very early with nothing following!) and uninvestigated, by the time arrangements have been made to shove back outside the junction signal...even with the most creative TRUST reporting!

But surely no one is perfect and people make mistakes. I'm dyslexic so I know that no matter how hard you try, it's difficult to be correct every time. Of course I'm not working as a train driver.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[billio]

A few years ago now, when my wife was a train manager for Virgin Cross Country, the 125 she was on was routed on to the Harrogate line when going North out of York. I seem to remember they got to Poppleton before reversing back.

 

[Minilad]

I think I must hold some sort of record where wrong routing is concerned. I have managed to be given the wrong route at the same signal two days running, but in different directions!
Norton Bridge on the down. First day heading to Manchester given Crewe. Second day heading to Preston given Stone. Needless to say I accepted neither!

 

[KA4C]

A driver with an excellent route knowledge would never take a wrong route in the first instance. You should know your signal patterns like the back of your hand and your driving should always reflect that.

Like I say to my lot, he who thinks he is invincible is storing up trouble

 

[ComUtoR]

It is 'too late' in the context of a wrong has been accepted. You can't undo taking a wrong route....

Setting back and continuing the correct path is a different matter.

What's the difference between "setting back" and "wrong direction move" ?

Are there issues with points and how they work or can a train go both ways down a line where its designed for one direction ?


I'm sure that there are also cases where there is a signal fault or points failure where a wrong route was taken or maybe where an incident has occurred and the Driver/Guard isn't providing full information to the public or just miscommunication between Driver/Signaller/Staff.

I am surprised with the varying ways in which its dealt with. Clearly a wrong route has wider implications and can lead to excessive delays.

 

[Bald Rick]

A driver with an excellent route knowledge would never take a wrong route in the first instance.

Except perhaps where the aspect sequences are exactly the same on the approach to a junction signal regardless of the route set in advance.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

A driver with an excellent route knowledge would never take a wrong route in the first instance. You should know your signal patterns like the back of your hand and your driving should always reflect that.

Anyone can make a mistake though. Anyone.

 

[carriageline]

Except perhaps where the aspect sequences are exactly the same on the approach to a junction signal regardless of the route set in advance.

Exactly, I can think of routes where signals are approach controlled regardless of route set!!

 

[Minilad]

A driver with an excellent route knowledge would never take a wrong route in the first instance. You should know your signal patterns like the back of your hand and your driving should always reflect that.

If you asked any driver who has taken a wrong route if they have excellent route knowledge I wonder what the answer would be. Complacency is a dangerous thing

 

[Tomnick]

A driver with an excellent route knowledge would never take a wrong route in the first instance. You should know your signal patterns like the back of your hand and your driving should always reflect that.

I see what you're saying (obviously excepting those where there's free greens towards both routes), but I'm sure (at least I hope) those who have taken a wrong route knew their routes to a similar standard, and that other factors were involved! Just out of interest, I understand that a lot of drivers are taught nowadays that there's no such thing as an approach-controlled signal - does that ever lead to drivers, booked over the diverging route, taking a green where they should be expecting restrictive aspects and ultimately taking the wrong route at the junction signal?

But surely no one is perfect and people make mistakes. I'm dyslexic so I know that no matter how hard you try, it's difficult to be correct every time. Of course I'm not working as a train driver.

Entirely correct, drivers (like the rest of us) are only human. Doesn't mean that the incident won't be investigated though, and of course the delay needs to be attributed correctly!

I think I must hold some sort of record where wrong routing is concerned. I have managed to be given the wrong route at the same signal two days running, but in different directions!
Norton Bridge on the down. First day heading to Manchester given Crewe. Second day heading to Preston given Stone. Needless to say I accepted neither!

I know of at least one case where a driver stopped to challenge a wrong route, waited for it to be taken back and the route to time out...then got back down on the phone when the signal came off for a different, but still wrong, route .

Exactly, I can think of routes where signals are approach controlled regardless of route set!!

Surely little excuse for taking a wrong route at those then?!